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Necromunda 3.0

 Post subject: Necromunda 3.0
PostPosted: Mon May 25, 2009 2:21 am 
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We've had Underhive. If the LRB process were to start up again what issues need to be addressed? What doesn't work? What needs changing?

Lets include Outlanders in this as well.

Issues, once proposed, need to be supported by three other people.

Each issue with enough support will be posted up here in the format:
- Issue (People in support of reviewing the issue) or as a link to the subtopic where we organise the reviews.
* Any sub-issues to the topic considered especially important

Edit: Lets try and keep it to the problems. Solutions can come later, separate threads so we can do polls to decide on solutions. If it gets that far.

List of Problems:
- Weapons review (Goobafish, Ravendas, Caelwyn, Rule-of-three, Humongus, Ant, Catferret, Ryback, mindrobber, ScooterinAB, Nougat)
* Swords & by extension the other crappy hth weapons
* Hand flamers
* Pistols
* Free weapons
* Outlander weapon types

- Skills Review (Goobafish, Ravendas, Caelwyn, Humongus, Ant, Catferret, ScooterinAB, Rule-of-three, Nougat)
* Muscle

- Overwatch re-think (Goobafish, Ravendas, Caelwyn, Ant, Catferret, Rule-of-three, Nougat)

- Post battle actions review (Goobafish, Caelwyn, Humongus, Ant, Nougat)

- Income (outlaw vs lawful) review (Goobafish, Caelwyn, Humongus, Ant, Nougat)

- Jumping/Falling Overhaul (Goobafish, Caelwyn, Humongus, Ant, Ryback, mindrobber, Nougat)
*Diving charges

- Gang Size limits (Goobafish, Caelwyn, Catferret, Ant, Rule-of-three, Nougat)

- Running within 8" (Ant, Caelwyn, Ryback, mindrobber, Nougat)

- Fear boost (specifically for hth) (Ant, Caelwyn, Ryback, Humongus, mindrobber, Goobafish, Nougat)

- Review the territories list and rules (Ant, Caelwyn, Catferret, Ryback, Humongus, Goobafish, Nougat)
* Replacing lost or crappy territories
* Method for determining a gang's territories

- House weapons lists review (Ant, Caelwyn, Catferret, Rule-of-three, Ryback, Nougat)

- Pinned rules review (Ant, Caelwyn, Catferret, Rule-of-three, Nougat, Twinlinked)

- Carried weapons limit (Caelwyn, Catferret, Rule-of-three, ScooterinAB, Nougat)

- General Equipment review (Ant, Caelwyn, Catferret, Jack the Snipper, Nougat)
* armour & shields (Adoni-Zedek, Goobafish)
* bionics

- Caravan (Goobafish, Caelwyn, Ant, Nougat)

- Outlander gang rewrites (Ant, Caelwyn, Goobafish, Nougat)

- Review Gang-rating & underdog bonuses (Goobafish, Caelwyn, rain9441, Nougat)

- Leveling up review (Humongus, ScooterinAB, Goofycabal, Nougat)

- Hired Guns review (Ant, Caelwyn, Catferret, Nougat)

- Serious Injuries Table review (specifically cumulative, capturing and mutants) (Ant, Caelwyn, Jack the Snipper, Nougat)

- Ammo-roll on 6 overhaul (Ant, Krug_666, Jack the Snipper, Nougat)

- Replacing Leaders (Caelwyn, Nougat, Humongus, Ezra)

- FAQ incorporation (Ant, Caelwyn, Goobafish, Nougat)
* Gonna leave this one till last as it requires a full rewrite of the rules. May as well include all the other suggestions we have.

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Last edited by Caelwyn on Wed Oct 21, 2009 11:20 pm, edited 18 times in total.

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PostPosted: Mon May 25, 2009 4:03 am 
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The ability to abuse overwatch to permapin models.

More fluid jumping/climbing rules.

Slightly update skill lists (Disarm being non-perma, Muscle getting buffed slightly, Techno tweaked, etc)

Fixing parry so it's not so godlike.


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PostPosted: Mon May 25, 2009 7:33 am 
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Removing the one-shot then it's empty rule on light flamers and bringing back the template.
Giving enforcers their special rule for ammo back as it was really characterful.

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Last edited by Rule-of-three on Mon May 25, 2009 10:04 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon May 25, 2009 8:21 am 
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Ammo Roll on a six, you should not be penalized for a good roll.

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PostPosted: Mon May 25, 2009 2:59 pm 
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Perhaps... incorporating the FAQ into the rule-book via more explanatory re-writes?

Streamlining and defining of weapon types.

Updating to V3 Skills.

Outlander re-writes.

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PostPosted: Mon May 25, 2009 3:40 pm 
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Balance weapons so there's always a good reason (aside from gang restrictions) to pick any given weapon. That mainly means changing parries (to balance swords / chainswords vs other HtH weapons) and doig something to make laspistols and stubguns more attractive (or maybe just bumping the cost of autoguns and bolt pistols).

Balance out the skill lists. Muscle skills largely suck, and combat is pretty weak compared to shooting both because the skills are less good and because HtH is weaker than shooting tactically.

Probably scrap the whole HtH combat system, in favor of the one mordhiem uses.

Clarify the post game sequence rules (gangers using medic, getting none house items, etc).

Ditch (much of) the random rare trade chart in favor of uncommon items as in mordhiem.

Clarify jumping and falling; allow jumping down without being pinned, especially with leap and catfall skills.

Chang the income chart to a formula or just alter sceanrio / territory incomes to work more like outlaws. I don't like the "stairstep" effect it creates where having one more guy or earning 2 more creds makes a 15 cred difference in how much you keep.

Decrease the randomness of progression by having "level advances" the fighter can take instead of rolling. These "level advances" would always allow a juve to reach ganger stats if taken, and a ganger / heavy to reach leader stats if taken.


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PostPosted: Mon May 25, 2009 4:39 pm 
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All right, so to make this easier I've decided that I will create a list in the first post of things that people think need to be changed.

For an item to make it onto that list they need to be agreed with by at least three other people.

I'm going to move my suggestion to limit gang size down here to reflect that.

Humongus wrote:
Balance weapons so there's always a good reason (aside from gang restrictions) to pick any given weapon. That mainly means changing parries (to balance swords / chainswords vs other HtH weapons) and doig something to make laspistols and stubguns more attractive (or maybe just bumping the cost of autoguns and bolt pistols).

I agree with this, there are a couple of issues with the weapons tables. I also agree with Gooba that the very definitions of weapons need to be streamlined as well.
+ Goobafish
+ Ravendas (I put you here cause you want parry fixed, let me know if you don't support a look at all the weapons)
+ Rule-of-three (again because you want hand flamers fixed, let me know if you don't support a look at all the weapons)
This is going into the main list.

Humongus wrote:
Balance out the skill lists. Muscle skills largely suck, and combat is pretty weak compared to shooting both because the skills are less good and because HtH is weaker than shooting tactically.

I agree with fixing the skills. The experimental skills rules were a great first step but I'd love to see an open look at them considering how many people have been redesigning the skills lists. Myself included.
+ Goobafish
+ Ravendas
This one is going into the main list.

Humongus wrote:
Probably scrap the whole HtH combat system, in favor of the one mordhiem uses.

I'm not sure i agree with this, the system from mordheim takes longer (particularly at the lower GR) and would severely reduce the value of juves.

Humongus wrote:
Clarify the post game sequence rules (gangers using medic, getting none house items, etc).

Definitely agree with this.

Humongus wrote:
Ditch (much of) the random rare trade chart in favor of uncommon items as in mordhiem.

Not sure i agree with this as it would change how inventor works and change much of the randomness of necro that i enjoy.

Humongus wrote:
Clarify jumping and falling; allow jumping down without being pinned, especially with leap and catfall skills.

Agree with this in general.
+ Ravendas

Humongus wrote:
Chang the income chart to a formula or just alter sceanrio / territory incomes to work more like outlaws. I don't like the "stairstep" effect it creates where having one more guy or earning 2 more creds makes a 15 cred difference in how much you keep.

Not sure about this.

Humongus wrote:
Decrease the randomness of progression by having "level advances" the fighter can take instead of rolling. These "level advances" would always allow a juve to reach ganger stats if taken, and a ganger / heavy to reach leader stats if taken.

I disagree with this as well. I like random advances, also allowing heavies easy access to +1BS doesn't sound like a good plan to me.

Goobafish wrote:
Perhaps... incorporating the FAQ into the rule-book via more explanatory re-writes?

This seems like an excellent idea. Would depend on if GW gave it a space limit like they did Blood Bowl. However if there are no plans to reprint it then there shouldn't be a limit.

Goobafish wrote:
Outlander re-writes.

Definitely.

Ravendas wrote:
The ability to abuse overwatch to permapin models.

I would support at least a review of how overwatch works.

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PostPosted: Mon May 25, 2009 8:44 pm 
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Quote:
Quote:
Decrease the randomness of progression by having "level advances" the fighter can take instead of rolling. These "level advances" would always allow a juve to reach ganger stats if taken, and a ganger / heavy to reach leader stats if taken.


I disagree with this as well. I like random advances, also allowing heavies easy access to +1BS doesn't sound like a good plan to me.


It wouldn't be easy access; it would be predictable access.
For example, the Juve to ganger advances could be:
juve level 1 - +1 Ld (if less than 7)
juve level 2 - +1 Ws (if less than 3)
juve level 3 - +1 Bs (if less than 3)
You could buy a level instead of taking a random roll. You have to buy the levels in order, unless you would gain no benefit from that level because you've already advanced the stat. (Basically, juve levels can't make you better than a ganger, but let you be sure to be as good as a starting ganger if you want to be.)

For gangers and heavies, it would be:
ganger / heavy level 1- +1 I (if less than 4)
ganger / heavy level 2- +1 Ld (if less than 8)
ganger / heavy level 3- +1 Ws (if less than 4)
ganger / heavy level 4- +1 Bs (if less than 4)
These would have similar restrictions as above. Its not EASY to get the +1 Bs for a heavy, but you at least know you will get it eventually if you keep taking levels rather than random advances. A heavy would have to earn at least 81 XP to make it to that level 4... and would have no skills.

Note that by favoring WS (and Ld) this system tends to favor HtH gangs, who IMO need this help more. It really stinks trying to set up a HtH gang and not getting WS advances.


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PostPosted: Mon May 25, 2009 9:51 pm 
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Hmmm... while this is an interesting house rule, changing the core rules to meet this model seems excessive.

Really this just indicates an underlying problem that certain advances are better than others. I'd rather alleviate that problem than upset the existing system.

My favourite house-rule potential was to make BS shots taken against Initiative (like S vs T). This would up the power of Initiative and really hamper BS (which is only 'powerful' once you get to 4 or 5).

---------------

Back to the topic at hand:
I'd support a re-think of Overwatch.

I'd like to single out the Sword and Handflamer in the weapon review.

I'd like to support a formalisation of post-battle actions (including terminology). What is, what isn't etc?

I'd like to raise/support a review of lawful vs outlaw income, gang size limits etc. Currently there are a number of loopholes.

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PostPosted: Mon May 25, 2009 10:03 pm 
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All right, I'm going to start a second list of items that need more people to support them before they make it onto the main list.

References to gangers for gangs that don't have them
+Caelwyn
+Goobafish
+Nougat

Rare Trade Overhaul
+Humongus
+Catferret
+Nougat

Scenarios with sentries
+Ant
+Caelwyn
+Nougat

Closest target and vision loophole
+Ant
+Jack the Snipper
+Nougat

S/I/A/Ld boost
+Ant
+Nougat

Hand-to-hand combat system overhaul
+Humongus
+Nougat

Xp Rewards
+Goofycabal
+Nougat

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Last edited by Caelwyn on Wed Jul 08, 2009 5:39 pm, edited 15 times in total.

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PostPosted: Tue May 26, 2009 3:00 am 
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Caelwyn wrote:
All right, I'm going to start a second list of items that need more people to support them before they make it onto the main list.

You can add my name to the following:

Post battle actions review
Income (outlaw vs lawful) review
Gang size limits (I only have a problem with outlaw gang sizes, though that's directly related to their income rules)
Caravan
Jumping/Falling Overhaul
FAQ incorporation
Outlander gang rewrites
Ammo-roll on 6 overhaul (If you change it to a 1 roll then you'll need to take a look at the Stray Shot rules as well)

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I agree with that, but if we're discussing house rule articles then I'll be tapping away here all day. :wink:

I have a lot of niggling problems with the weapons, but I'd say the ones with the bigger problems that aren't on the list so far are: flail, grenade launcher, plasma gun and scare grenades. The ones that I take lesser issue with are: massive weapon, power weapons, stub gun, laspistol, boltpistol, plasma pistol, web pistol, lasgun, shotgun and the cost of heavy weapons in general except for the heavy stuber and heavy bolter.

You could possibly add armour on there but I think that's more of a problem with the lasgun and manstopper Save Mods.

There's also a pretty big problem with bionics. I don't even know how the official rules are supposed to work.

I'd like to see if something could be done about the initial territory rolls as well since if you roll a bunch of naff territories then you might as well start a fresh gang, while if you roll up a couple of Spore Caves or Archeotech Hoards then you have a massive advantage.

The current loop hole in the choose a target rules where you can position your fighter so his vision arc ignores certain enemy fighters needs closing.

The can't run within 8" of an enemy fighter is just annoying.

The Appearing/Disappearing and Charging to-hit modifiers could do with being separated, which would make it easier for hth fighters to charge overwatchers.

Rescues and to a lesser extent Raids are so easy because sentries are incredibly unaware.

Pinned fighters being sitting ducks.

The lack of importance in S/I/A/LD in comparison to the other characteristics.

Fear is a penalty for hth orientated gangers rather than a bonus.

House Weapon Lists.

Weapon Reloads, hotshot laser power packs, screamers/stummers and I'd like to see more of a rules difference between respirator/flugs and photo-visor/contacts.

Should hired guns advance?

Serious injuries could do with looking at, in particular the issue of cumulative injuries.

As for the skills, obviously Techno is overpowered and generally I take issue with the parry centric nature of the Combat table, the Shooting skills reliance on specific weapons and I do think the Ferocity table would be more useful if the likes of Berserk Charge and Impetuous where replaced with non-hth specific skills since then any gang fighter no matter their armament would find the skill table useful. I'm not a fan of Leader/Heavy only skills being in the regular skill tables either.


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PostPosted: Tue May 26, 2009 3:55 am 
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Ant wrote:
Goobahfish wrote:
Special Event Cards (Live-wire)

I agree with that, but if we're discussing house rule articles then I'll be tapping away here all day. :wink:

Ah yeah, house rule. I might take it off the main list then Gooba, if its not official rules it has no place in a thread about rules reviews.

Quote:
The current loop hole in the choose a target rules where you can position your fighter so his vision arc ignores certain enemy fighters needs closing.

I'm not sure that there is much that can be done about that without restricting tactical movement, its never been an issue in the games i played.

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PostPosted: Tue May 26, 2009 3:59 am 
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In favour of:

-Revised skills tables
-Revised weapons
-Expanded weapons lists
-Gang size limits
-Additional penalties to hit pinned fighters (diving prone like in Confrontation basically)
-Flexibility of equipment on Hired Guns (assign each one a number of creds to purchase things from a list)
-Hired Guns operating more like Hired Swords in Mordheim (closer to being permanent gang members, earning xp, etc)
-Reaction test to overwatch fire on appearing targets (like in Confrontation)
-Uncommon items on Trade Charts
-Diving charges
-Expanded territories list

Not in favour of:
-WFB/Mordheim hand to hand

The reason I would want hand to hand to avoid the Mordheim system is it's so freaking indecisive! Mordheim combat always seems to drag on ineffectually tying models up for far too long. Necromunda is fast paced and still allows an underclassed opponent a chance of victory due to the fumble/critical rules.


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PostPosted: Tue May 26, 2009 5:02 am 
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Catferret wrote:
-Expanded territories list

Not in favour of:
-WFB/Mordheim hand to hand

The reason I would want hand to hand to avoid the Mordheim system is it's so freaking indecisive! Mordheim combat always seems to drag on ineffectually tying models up for far too long. Necromunda is fast paced and still allows an underclassed opponent a chance of victory due to the fumble/critical rules.

I agree with the assessment of hth. As to expanded territories list, i'm not sure exactly what you had in mind. Could you expand on what you think the problems are?

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PostPosted: Tue May 26, 2009 6:50 am 
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Yeah I hated Mordheim hand to hand as well, one reason I quit. 1/6 chance of every attempt to hit being basically an unstoppable crit? That just means more attacks = better, to the detriment of weaponskill and strength.

I like Necromunda's WH40k 2nd ed style of hth.


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