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brand of oil filter

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2006 10:06 pm 
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Absorption of zinc from the digestive tract is not well understood. Iron is needed for healthy blood. nutrition if you were vigilant about opting for nutrient-dense foods
Not sure if this has already been mentioned in previous 30th Anniversary gig threads but there is a distinct possibility that the section of the Jubilee line used to travel from west London to the O2
gainers, and losers. J Am Diet Assoc 1997;97:481?8. longer warm-up and cool-down times will help lots of information about health, fitness, diet, exercise, weight loss, and more?and all of it
I clicked your "The story about-Majin-" link and it's funny I remember Majin back from my Deus Ex days, it was hilarious He kept telling adult swim he was going to hack his server for two weeks, and

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2006 8:39 pm 
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WE played Star Wars minis quite a bit. Plus we used them for our Star Wars RPG campaign. When I fist heard about the Star Wars Starships battle game over a year ago I was excited. AS more and more information became available my excitement waned and now, after the rules have been posted and all the ships have been seen I must say I don't know if I'll be getting any of these.

Some of these sculpts are horrible. And the warped bendy plastic they make their figs out of don't lend themselves well to starships. Much like the Axis and Allies minis game the inconsistent scale really turns me off. When I game I want all my stuff to look good on the table and be in scale with each other. I realise that when you have huge capital ships and tiny one man fighters represented in the same game that you're going to need to fudge the scale a bit, but I wish they would have kept all the ships of the same class in the same scale. I would have preferred to see 3 or 4 tiny fighters mounted on a single base as a squadron. Alternatively they could have left the Capital ships out entirely and made a fighter combat game.

The rules leave much to be desired. There are no range factors. Any ship can fire at any other ship on the map regardless of range or cover (except fighter which need to be adjacent to an enemy ship to shoot or be shot at). There is no screening of your ships with bigger ships. There are no debris fields or asteroids to hide in. Basically the tactics are - "roll better than the other guy". Fighters are way too deadly. Despite the fighters of the movies being unable to penetrate the shields of capital ships, in the game it's quite easy for a pair of X-wing to destroy a Star Destroyer in a single round. Even if each X-wing figure represents a squadron of fighters, this is ridiculous.

As it stands right now, I may pick up a few ships if they can be found cheaply in the commons bin at a LGS.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 25, 2006 2:45 pm 
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Holden88 wrote:
As it stands right now, I may pick up a few ships if they can be found cheaply in the commons bin at a LGS.


I agree. the scale issues don't bother me too much. But it seems the game itself is not very good. Command counters make cover and range and stuff - but overall i am not impressed.

That, and the whole outgassing thing. SWM were banned in eu for releasing toxic fumes. That new miniature smell? Yeah, its a killer.

...

So, i have decided collect 1/6000 modern naval ships. and use 'shipwreck' or 'harpoon' for the rulesets.

Modern naval ship games have the same issues that you have with ssb - the aircraft carriers are 1/6000, the brown water vessels are 1/2400, and the aircraft are 1/600.

And there is no cover on the open ocean.. and since most combat is done with cruise missiles, the ranges on everything is like 300 inches; one missile can sink a ship; fighters can carry nukes - and nukes can destroy whole carrier battlegroups. Fighter can move 20 inches on the turn they launch; 40 inches at top speed.

They say to play on a 8x6 table minimum. (floor is best ) Everything is in range by the first or second turn and once missiles start flying, the game is pretty much over.

Games last maybe 4 turns, total.

:D

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 26, 2006 12:48 am 
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mortishroom wrote:
Modern naval ship games have the same issues that you have with ssb - the aircraft carriers are 1/6000, the brown water vessels are 1/2400, and the aircraft are 1/600. And there is no cover on the open ocean.. and since most combat is done with cruise missiles, the ranges on everything is like 300 inches; one missile can sink a ship; fighters can carry nukes - and nukes can destroy whole carrier battlegroups.
I don't have a problem with this because modern naval warfare is actually like this. Star Wars fleet battles from the movies are nothing like real life modern fleet battles. IMHO the rules should try to emulate what is seen on screen rather than reflect the modern world. This would all be moot anyway if the figures were of decent quality. I can always kitbash my own rules of use any number of excellent space battle rules out there to run Star Wars battles. The only problem is the pics I've seen of the ships leaves me with little hope that there is any value to be had here at all.

If I were to use aircraft in a naval game They would be of a larger scale than the ships. This gives a great "forced perspective" look to the table top. It appears that the aircraft are flying high above the ships below. This doesn't really work for a space game though.

I too was looking hard at getting into a naval mini war game lately. I downloaded Mongoose publishings free demo rules for Victory at Sea. The game plays fairly fast and covers a wide range of WWII navies. I actually created a sheet of ship counters which I could print off and then glue on to thick card.

Then I saw that WOTC is coming out with War at Sea. A pre-painted, collectable mini game. Downloaded the free rules and read them over. The game is abstract and doesn't appeal to me but the minis look interesting. The collectable aspect is annoying and the figures are actually quite large (4" for battleships).

So that lead me to check out alternative naval minis. I scoped out 1/2400, 1/3000 and 1/6000 ranges produced by GHQ, Skytrex, Navwar and others.

I think I've decided to make a modest investment a get a handful of GHQ's excellent 1/2400 ships. They are a bit big but the I find the smaller ships hard on the eyes and difficult to identify. I'm gonna get the Graf Spee, Exeter, Ajax and Achilles so I can run the battle of the River Plate and see how it goes from there.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 26, 2006 12:28 pm 
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"I don't have a problem with this because modern naval warfare is actually like this. Star Wars fleet battles from the movies are nothing like real life modern fleet battles."

Go watch rotj again. vader's ssd is taken out by a single a-wing fighter; and then...

...IT (&#$@!) SINKS!!

Star Wars fleet battles are more like real life fleet battles then far future zero-g space battles. the physics are all wrong.

IMO, 1/2400 is plain out for the kind ov fleet action I want.. The model range has 1/2 the number ov minis as can be found in 1/6000, each mini is 4 times as expensive (and 3 times as big - more room to store, more detail to paint, more playing surface needed). And the big carriers I want (Kuznetzov & Enterprise ) are not available.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 26, 2006 2:24 pm 
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The only reason the A-wing was able to inflict any kind of damage on the SSD is because the Executors shields had already been dropped by the rebel capital ships. In Star Wars, fighter craft can't harm capital ships unless they get extremely lucky (ie:fly into hanger bay, hit the exhaust port, crash into bridge etc...). Capital ship shields are too strong for whimpy fighter weapons to penetrate.

In contrast to Star Wars, real life aircraft are quite capable of inflicting lethal damage against capital ships without any kind of dues ex machina.

PS- There is no logical reason that the Executor should have "sunk" and crashed into the Death Star. This is stupid. If the bridge was destroyed I'm sure that all the command and control functions for the ship would have been automatically transfered to an emergency bridge. That, or the ship would have simply drifted along on it's previous course.

Star Wars is great, but it is extremely difficult to apply any kind of logical consistancy to the universe. Lucas likes to throw odd scenes into his movies because they are "kewl".


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2007 6:36 am 
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Holden88 wrote:
Star Wars is great, but it is extremely difficult to apply any kind of logical consistancy to the universe. Lucas likes to throw odd
scenes into his movies because they are "kewl".


The worst was adding flaps and landing strips in RotS when -every- ship ever shown has VTOL capability. Why have a landing strips when no ship has ever had wheels? Oi!

This lack of consistancy makes SW ship battles hard to game. The best I've seen was the old SW Rebellion game. Here the space ships acted like they should. But even that wasn't close since an ISD can easily outrun the Millenium Falcon which is, supposedly, the "fastest ship in the fleet". It would be a wierd game if Star Destroyers could move further than fighters.

In any event, SW ship-to-ship battles aren't like modern naval battles because they take place at such extremely close range.



Aaron


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2007 8:03 am 
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Don't even try to apply any kind of science or physics to SW. It will only cause your brain to melt into something else.

At which point you will be impressed with American Idol, enjoy Sluprees, and buy SW figs. ;)

I would however like to see someone take the time to make a more realistic Sci-fi space battle game.

Of course in real life, the biggest problem you would have is that in Space the distances are MUCH MUCH further out than people imagine.

Honestly, I could even begin to fathom what a billion miles out would look like from a light-speed borne starship.

Honestly, I would think it would be more like the Naval battles described above.

However, I can't imagine a fighter taking out a Capital ship, except in of course the most extremely rare cases.

Just a thought or 2.

-Dr R. 8-)

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2007 2:10 pm 
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I remember seeing ads for that Discovery channel series 'The Science of Star Wars', and laughing my arse off. Oxymoron'd.
Steer clear of anything on the Discovery channel with 'science' in the title. It will be nothing of the sort.
Actually just steer clear of the Discovery channel in general. You will acquire less disinformation that way.

What annoys me to no end is the way air-to-air combat (and simmilar) is always represented in popular culture with the protagonists both visible on screen at the same time. It's always one d00d sitting on another's tail, 20-30 metres behind him, chasing him down with cannons/lasers blazing.
Even short ranged infrared air-to-air missiles have a range of tens of kilometres and are a far more effective way of engaging a target than closing to within a kilometre or two to try and manually aim your cannon.
A cannon requires you to point your nose directly at your target to engage it. An infrared missile can engage a target 60-90 degrees off boresight/straight ahead.
Not to mention radar guided missiles which can engage targets hundreds of kilometres away.

I'm tired of seeing fighters represented in games and movies as puny things that buzz about firing their impotent cannons or lasers or air-to-air missiles, that are good for nothing but engaging other wimpy aircraft.
Fighters can carry at least one of anything short of a ballistic missile. Su-27 series aircraft can carry a single SS-N-22, which cannot be defended against and will break an aircraft carrier's back.

If modern aircraft and naval vessels can engage each other from hundreds of kilometres away (thousands of kilometres if you include the range of aircraft on carriers), just imagine the sort of beyond-visual-range capabilities a military capable of inter-stellar travel would have.

I've had some interest in spaceship battles games in the past, but there are issues I don't think I could reach a happy compromise between.
Namely scale vs the model range, and three-dimensionality vs realism.
I'm unwilling to pay for and use models that are not all in the same scale, but with the sort of ranges you would be dealing with, either your capital ship is the size of a BFG capital ship, and your fighters the size of a grain of sand, or your capital ship is bigger than a'Land Raider, your fighters a little smaller than a fingernail, and you use a basketball court as your playing area.
The fact that space combat is completely three dimensional is pretty much the most important thing you need to take into account in a game that attempts to be remotely realistic, but I think it's also one of the most difficult aspects to implement adequately in a game of any significant size.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2007 5:22 pm 
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All that may be true enough.

But it won't make a good movie or tabletop game.

Every fault you have pointed out is true. However, think back to the days of World War I & II, when a fighter pilot had to really put their balls on the line and get in behind the enemy. Now that was, dare I say it, romantic.

Just you against the other guy, man and machine, and whether you lived or died came down completely to your skill. That is what movies and games try to capture.

My view is that some things simply won't be explained by science when you're talking about something that is almost completely fantasy.


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PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2007 10:16 pm 
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The best thing about the capital ship fleet battles game thingy is that all of the moulds for the star destroyers and smaller, were taken from the micromachines star wars sets. I got given a few of these sets years ago, and the x-wings, y wings, TIEs, etc, are identical.

I had a couple of fleets an I didn't even know it. These days i use them in Full Thrust - the only spaceship combat game I play.


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PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2007 11:49 pm 
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Roderz - I wholeheartedly agree on all particulars.

chromedog - Full Thrust FTW. It's a great game. There are some problems with it - I found Missiles and, to a lesser degree, Fighters hard to balance with Point Defence Systems (use too many PDS' and the ships become untouchable, use too little and they'll be ripped to shreds much too easily, a middle ground is hard to find). But overall FT is still one of the most fun games I ever played. And it lets you design your own ships, and doing so is easy - that's very hard to beat. I even devised somewhat-but-not-terribly-complicated rules to make it fully 3-D, but generally find them too much of a bother to use compared to the increase in fun they provide.

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PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2007 4:21 pm 
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Where can I go for more info on Full Thrust?


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PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2007 8:08 pm 
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Uhm...hello? Is anyone here familiar with FASA's Aerotech?


You know, the spaceship battle game that have rules for Newtonian Momentum?


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2007 6:48 pm 
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Roderz wrote:
Where can I go for more info on Full Thrust?


Here ya go

http://www.groundzerogames.net/

You can download the rules for free.


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