Login |  Register |  FAQ
   
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 34 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next

Plasma Pistol

 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2007 12:14 am 
Offline
Cadet
Cadet
User avatar

Joined: Wed Apr 18, 2007 12:30 am
Posts: 44
Location: Middle of nowhere in Poland
Thank you, cykotek, for mercilessly killing another one of my comfortable misconceptions about laser weapons. You people will drive me into depression! :P

Quote:
I think my approach aims for both 'shiny' and 'realistic'. The two need not be mutually exclusive. Regardless of anything else, if something makes sense, it is inherently cooler than something that doesn't.

Absolutely. Now, if only somebody could explain that to the people who wrote Infinity's hacking rules...

_________________
It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishments the scroll,
I am the master of my fate,
I am the captain of my soul.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2007 2:27 am 
Offline
Master Sergeant
Master Sergeant
User avatar

Joined: Wed May 25, 2005 7:44 am
Posts: 1675
Location: Australia
Could you give a description of the hacking rules?
I looked at the Infinity combat rules quite a while ago now, they looked okay. All I know about the hacking rules is that they can effect enemy armour units, or something like that.
That seemed silly. If your mech is vulnerable to haxX0rs, turn your damn WiFi off. :P

_________________
Warhammer 40,000 5th edition
The least worst rules for 40K.

The purpose of writing is to inflate weak ideas, obscure poor reasoning, and inhibit clarity.
With a little practice, writing can be an intimidating and impenetrable fog, behind which halftruths and untruths can frolic and procreate unmolested.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2007 3:52 am 
Offline
Cadet
Cadet
User avatar

Joined: Wed Apr 18, 2007 12:30 am
Posts: 44
Location: Middle of nowhere in Poland
Quote:
I looked at the Infinity combat rules quite a while ago now, they looked okay.

I'm a little surprised. I honestly expected you'd drag Infinity through the mud for the "borrowed time" mechanic it uses (you have as many "Orders" as you have models, but may spend them however you wish, up to 10 on a single model, so 90% of your army may stand around doing nothing, while 10% runs all over the battlefield like a team of Flashes). Myself, I can work with it, but it does disturb me somewhat.

Quote:
If your mech is vulnerable to haxX0rs, turn your damn WiFi off.

:D
That being said, I think Hacking in Infinity doesn't represent just hacking, rather it encompasses all the range of electronic warfare techniques. Also, in the Infinity universe, they have something like the cyberpunk version of the net, and that's what they use for communication instead of simple radio. I'm ambivalent on this idea. It's cool and all, and incorporating hacking into the game is probably the most interesting and innovative idea I've seen in wargames to date, but I'm aware that it falls flat at the reality test, at least in the context of warfare (and don't get me started on the gibsonian vision of the net itself, or we'll be here until the cows come home). And the rules about which units may be affected by hacking in what way, and the rationales why, are simply screwed.

But all this is getting pretty far afield from the original topic. I'm sorry for mentioning Infinity, it was just what was on my mind at the time. If you do want to talk about it, or just listen to me rant, I'll start a new thread. Tomorrow, when I have more time. :)

_________________
It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishments the scroll,
I am the master of my fate,
I am the captain of my soul.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2007 10:11 am 
Offline
Master Sergeant
Master Sergeant
User avatar

Joined: Wed May 25, 2005 7:44 am
Posts: 1675
Location: Australia
When I say the Infinity rules looked okay, I mean they didn't look like they sucked as bad as 3rd/4th edition 40K. :P
I must have missed the borrowed time mechanic. Either that, or I purged it from my memory. Regardless of anything else, that sort of feature just makes the game un-playable. It's about as bad as Inquisitor's action system.

If you're familiar with Infinity, it'd be great if you could make a new topic and give us a run-down of the game.

The file is progressing. A bit. :P

_________________
Warhammer 40,000 5th edition
The least worst rules for 40K.

The purpose of writing is to inflate weak ideas, obscure poor reasoning, and inhibit clarity.
With a little practice, writing can be an intimidating and impenetrable fog, behind which halftruths and untruths can frolic and procreate unmolested.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2007 2:12 am 
Offline
Cadet
Cadet
User avatar

Joined: Wed Apr 18, 2007 12:30 am
Posts: 44
Location: Middle of nowhere in Poland
Quote:
I must have missed the borrowed time mechanic. Either that, or I purged it from my memory. Regardless of anything else, that sort of feature just makes the game un-playable.

My answer to this will have to wait - see below.

I'd be happy to share and discuss my thoughts and complaints about Infinity with you and the rest of the community here. At lest then I'll stop hijacking this thread. But I don't know when I'll be able to do it. I said in my introduction, I do not have net access at home. This week, I'm free from my university - national holiday. And now it turns out that the only public place with a net connection in my town (the library) does not allow you to copy anything from any data carrier to their computer. I reasonable precaution I'm sure, but it also means that I will have to sit here for five hours typing everything I have to say instead of comfortably writing it at home. That is, I would, but the stupid gits won't let me - you can't just monopolize the library computer for so long, don't you know? Half an hour, max. Retards. Why do you have only one, then? This town is so backwards, you'd think we're still living in the 20th century. Grrr. And all my net-present friends are outta town. So it'll have to wait. I'll try to figure something out. Read you then.

_________________
It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishments the scroll,
I am the master of my fate,
I am the captain of my soul.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2007 9:28 pm 
Offline
Master Sergeant
Master Sergeant
User avatar

Joined: Wed May 25, 2005 7:44 am
Posts: 1675
Location: Australia
No hurry.

_________________
Warhammer 40,000 5th edition
The least worst rules for 40K.

The purpose of writing is to inflate weak ideas, obscure poor reasoning, and inhibit clarity.
With a little practice, writing can be an intimidating and impenetrable fog, behind which halftruths and untruths can frolic and procreate unmolested.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat May 05, 2007 2:45 am 
Offline
Master Sergeant
Master Sergeant
User avatar

Joined: Wed May 25, 2005 7:44 am
Posts: 1675
Location: Australia
Here it is: 40K role-playing mod.

I have always found descriptions and portrayals of bolt guns to be very unsatisfactory. So I put the most detail into the description of the bolt guns used by space marines.

20mm Adeptus Astartes Bolt Gun, 100 points: Encumberment 8/18, Moving Modifier +2, Re-load 30x2, Rapid Fire Explosive 5/30, 0-18” +2, 18-42”, 42-54” –1, 54-66” –2, 66-78” –3, 78-90” –4, 90-120” –5, direct hit 13+4D6, 1” blast 4+3D6, 2” blast 2+3D6.
Ammo 25 points per 30 round magazine, Encumberment 5.
75 round drum magazine, 70 points, Re-load 75x2, Encumberment 12.5.
Notes: A huge weapon, too powerful for a normal human to use unless mounted on a tripod. The exact details of weapons vary depending on where they are manufactured and for whom, but will generally follow the tried, tested and proven design that has been in use unchanged for centuries. Components are usually machined from blocks of alloy rather than stamped or cast, bolt guns are both very heavy and very durable. Built to withstand severe punishment, heavy use, and to operate in harsh environments; a bolt gun in the hands of an Adeptus Astartes brother is nearly as deadly when swung as a club as when fired, and a newly smithed weapon can expect a service life of many decades. The 30 round magazines and the cartridge cases themselves are usually made of a light, tough polymer, each 20mm round weighing 145 grams, the projectile itself weighing 112 grams. The rocket propelled grenade projectile is spin-stabilised by rifling in the barrel, launched at trans-sonic velocity, then accelerated to over 2.5 times the speed of sound as the solid fuel rocket ignites. The rocket engine makes up just under a quarter of the projectile weight, and the grenade still strikes with over 30,000 joules of energy at its maximum individual-target range. The warhead detonates on impact, scattering lethal fragments over a small radius and punching the carbide tip even further into the target. Bolt rounds are effective against a wide range of targets; a few hits are capable of destroying light armoured vehicles, they will reliably kill heavy infantry, sustained shooting will defeat the heavy powered armour of the Adeptus Astartes, and through sheer volume of fire, even heavily armoured vehicles can have their sensors and mobility crippled. Results of bolt gun fire on light infantry is the very definition of overkill. The ability of a full 10-man squad of rapidly deploying Adeptus Astartes to place 300 bolt rounds on target, to a range of 1000 metres, in the space of a few short seconds, is absolutely terrifying.

_________________
Warhammer 40,000 5th edition
The least worst rules for 40K.

The purpose of writing is to inflate weak ideas, obscure poor reasoning, and inhibit clarity.
With a little practice, writing can be an intimidating and impenetrable fog, behind which halftruths and untruths can frolic and procreate unmolested.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat May 05, 2007 5:24 am 
Offline
Master of Arms
Master of Arms
User avatar

Joined: Sun Aug 20, 2006 6:44 am
Posts: 2423
nice description :D


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat May 05, 2007 11:48 am 
Offline
Lance Corporal
Lance Corporal

Joined: Sat May 28, 2005 4:00 pm
Posts: 249
Location: Victoria, BC, Canada
Recoil is actually fairly simple physics.

Force = Mass x Acceleration or F=ma.

Force of projectile leaving gun = force exerted in opposite direction against gun

Therefore, F1=F2 or m1a1=m2a2

If we re-arrange the formula we get a2=m1a1/m2

So, it all depends on how much mass the bolt of plasma has, how fast the bolt of plasma accelerates out of the gun and how much mass the pistol itself has.

The bolt of plasma is an ionized gas, so its density is probably fairly low (but it may be a highly compressed gas). The speed of the bolt leaving the gun could be significantly high however. One of the problems with building a functioning plasma weapon is the fact that the plasma charge will dissipate quickly in an atmosphere. One way to circumvent this problem is to propel the plasma charge with tremedous velocity so that it reaches its target before it dissipates.

So assuming that the gun fires plasma bolts at super sonic speeds, the recoil could be significant.

This assumes that there is no kind of sci-fi (read:magical) recoil compensation system in effect.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2007 2:51 am 
Offline
Cadet
Cadet
User avatar

Joined: Wed Apr 18, 2007 12:30 am
Posts: 44
Location: Middle of nowhere in Poland
shiver85 wrote:
nice description

Very much seconded, Robbie. I can just see the caption:
"Adeptus Astrates Bolt Gun - taking the pistol whip into new heights!" :D
One starts to seriously wonder, weather he should be more afraid of a Marine shooting or clubbing him with his Bolter. I have one question, however. Why did you dispose with the mass-reaction warhead and made the bolt explode on impact instead? Too high-tech to put into a bullet at the Imperium's tech level, deemed to silly for some reason, available but not standard issue, or what? I like them, if for no better reason then that they make for very cool visuals in my head. :D

I haven't had time to go through the entire thing yet, but from what I can see, the RPG mod is made of pure awsome. But another question: What is Plausible Deniability? I've seen it mentioned a few times on the old HotH forum, but could never find any satisfying explanation. Is it the game you designed?

Holden88 wrote:
This assumes that there is no kind of sci-fi (read:magical) recoil compensation system in effect.

I usually assume there isn't, at least not in the 40K Imperium context. To me, it just isn't much like them to put gravitic inertia dampers into wide issue weapons like that. The Eldar would be a different case. And Orks? I'd imagine they would consider recoil compensation to me makedly un-Orky. :D

_________________
It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishments the scroll,
I am the master of my fate,
I am the captain of my soul.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2007 5:26 am 
Offline
Master Sergeant
Master Sergeant
User avatar

Joined: Wed May 25, 2005 7:44 am
Posts: 1675
Location: Australia
Heh, simply put, if you're a lesser being and there's a space marine in your vicinity that wants you dead, there's not much you can do about it either way. :P

Someone brought up the lack of 'mass reactive detonator' bit on another forum:
Traveller61 wrote:
A lot of the fluff describes the bolt as having a mass reactive fuse; this allows the explosive charge to detonate inside the target, rather than just be used to force a core into the unlucky victim.

I wrote:
I'm aware of that bit. I think it gets mentioned in pretty much every bolt weapon description. I left it out since I thought it was a bit redundant, and - in an already long description - a bit cumbersome to describe a fuse that detonates inside a certain depth/amount of soft tissue and/or after penetrating hard surfaces and/or on impact with hard surfaces it can't penetrate, and realistically, which also doesn't detonate when passing through light obstructions such as glass, thin walls, or foliage.
At any rate, a small dense metal spike flying through the engine block of the vehicle behind you is the least of your worries when the warhead that just hit you in the chest explosively liquefied everything between your hips and shoulders. :P
30,000 joules of energy will kill you up to 375 times over, let alone the exploding bit.


Also, I was surprised at the ammount of support there is for the idea of two different bolt gun calibres.

Plausible Deniability is my 'modern-not so near future' role-playing game, I haven't posted it online. The file I posted is a mod. to it, for adapting the basic rules to the 40K setting. Or, my interpretation of the 40K setting anyway.

Holden88 wrote:
One way to circumvent this problem is to propel the plasma charge with tremedous velocity so that it reaches its target before it dissipates.

I think it's possible that the higher the velocity, the more the projectile is 'fanned' into dissipating. Maybe it would need a laser to cut a path through the atmosphere for it, like a charged particle beam.

Quote:
This assumes that there is no kind of sci-fi (read:magical) recoil compensation system in effect.

I think more 40K weapons would require active recoil compensation than people realise. As well as suspensors to be able to move at a practical speed while carying all that weight. It's pretty much the only way to explain some situations.

_________________
Warhammer 40,000 5th edition
The least worst rules for 40K.

The purpose of writing is to inflate weak ideas, obscure poor reasoning, and inhibit clarity.
With a little practice, writing can be an intimidating and impenetrable fog, behind which halftruths and untruths can frolic and procreate unmolested.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2007 12:24 am 
Offline
Cadet
Cadet
User avatar

Joined: Wed Apr 18, 2007 12:30 am
Posts: 44
Location: Middle of nowhere in Poland
I guess you're right on the explosive charge thing. I just never before thought of the Marine Bolter being quite so powerful.

Quote:
Also, I was surprised at the ammount of support there is for the idea of two different bolt gun calibres.

Well, it makes a lot of sense. If the standard Marine Boltgun is so freaking heavy and would break the arms of a normal human trying to fire it, then there has to be a scaled down-version for human use, if you want humans to use them. And even without that, there are different calibers of normal ballistic weapons, so why not Bolters? But some questions appear: Which size of Bolter do the Adeptus Soraritas use? Is wearing Power Armor enough for a normal human to use a Marine-sized Bolter? Can humans even use PA in your version of the setting? Do you even believe in the Sisterhood (as opposed to million year old star gods :D )? I'll be sad if you don't - I like the Nuns with Guns, just as an image if nothing else (the whole religious fanaticism bit does not sit too well with me either).
Still on the different caliber issue, would you consider making allowances for different sizes of Lascannons and other heavy weapons? I ask because on the miniatures the versions wielded by Marine Devastators are notoriously smaller then IG equivalents (I think it has been brought up before). In my group we usually explained it away with the Marine weapons being built with better technology (only the best for the Imperium's finest), and so they could be smaller while still retaining the same performance. Or we just didn't bother explaining at all, putting it down to sculptor sillines. :D

_________________
It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishments the scroll,
I am the master of my fate,
I am the captain of my soul.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2007 3:47 am 
Offline
Master Sergeant
Master Sergeant
User avatar

Joined: Wed May 25, 2005 7:44 am
Posts: 1675
Location: Australia
Quote:
Which size of Bolter do the Adeptus Soraritas use?

Definitely the 14mm one.

Quote:
Is wearing Power Armor enough for a normal human to use a Marine-sized Bolter?

No. Power armour is enough of an enhancement to allow them to handle 14mm bolt guns easily, but they'd still struggle with 20mm bolt guns. A strong human in power armour could control a 20mm bolt gun if they fired single shots while prone or braced, but they couldn't treat it like an assault rifle.

Quote:
Can humans even use PA in your version of the setting?

Yeah, a lot more commonly than in official versions of 40K. I imagine it would be common for Arbite units to wear powered armour. At least, I think the big suits of carapace armour they wear would be 'motivated', if not strength-enhancingly 'powered'.

Quote:
Do you even believe in the Sisterhood (as opposed to million year old star gods Very Happy )?

Yes, I even have a decent sized army of them. :P
They are a much-maligned army. I gave them a few more options than what they have in any of their official rules.

Quote:
Still on the different caliber issue, would you consider making allowances for different sizes of Lascannons and other heavy weapons?

I would, but it's not really necessary. Bolt guns are commonly used in, large numbers, by different military and non-military types, all across the Imperium, and there's a good chance that you will encounter at least the two most common calibres if you're well travelled and get shot at a lot. Las-cannons aren't that widespread or commonly used enough at an individual level to make it worthwhile to do rules for multiple calibres and variants. Realistically, I imagine there would be a huge disparity in performance between a portable Imperial Guard las-cannon, and one of the monster las-cannons on a 'land raider's sponsons. But, that difference is absorbed and negated by the scale of the 40K tabletop game, and in a role-playing game, I don't think a situation where the difference matters would come up that often.

_________________
Warhammer 40,000 5th edition
The least worst rules for 40K.

The purpose of writing is to inflate weak ideas, obscure poor reasoning, and inhibit clarity.
With a little practice, writing can be an intimidating and impenetrable fog, behind which halftruths and untruths can frolic and procreate unmolested.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2007 3:43 am 
Offline
Cadet
Cadet
User avatar

Joined: Wed Apr 18, 2007 12:30 am
Posts: 44
Location: Middle of nowhere in Poland
Quote:
Quote:
Is wearing Power Armor enough for a normal human to use a Marine-sized Bolter?

No. Power armour is enough of an enhancement to allow them to handle 14mm bolt guns easily, but they'd still struggle with 20mm bolt guns. A strong human in power armour could control a 20mm bolt gun if they fired single shots while prone or braced, but they couldn't treat it like an assault rifle.

Quote:
Can humans even use PA in your version of the setting?

Yeah, a lot more commonly than in official versions of 40K. I imagine it would be common for Arbite units to wear powered armour. At least, I think the big suits of carapace armour they wear would be 'motivated', if not strength-enhancingly 'powered'.

Ah, okay then. I'm just used to a different take on powered armor. I forget that the principial powered armor in 40K, the Power Armor, is powered almost solely for mobility and does not enchance the strength of the user all that much much. What I'm used to is a more Cyberpunk/Appleseed take, where the armor does not so much enchance as substitute its strength for the one of the user, giving him just enough resistance to let him know he's doing something.

Quote:
Realistically, I imagine there would be a huge disparity in performance between a portable Imperial Guard las-cannon, and one of the monster las-cannons on a 'land raider's sponsons. But, that difference is absorbed and negated by the scale of the 40K tabletop game, and in a role-playing game, I don't think a situation where the difference matters would come up that often.

Makes sense. If you're hit by one you die, who cares how many damage dice it rolls exactly? :P

And one thing I forgat before. If you're not posting it online, when (if ever) will PD be available in print then? Some of the stuff in the 40K mod is hard to understand without a proper rules context.

_________________
It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishments the scroll,
I am the master of my fate,
I am the captain of my soul.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2007 7:36 am 
Offline
Master Sergeant
Master Sergeant
User avatar

Joined: Wed May 25, 2005 7:44 am
Posts: 1675
Location: Australia
I draw a pretty big distinction between powered armour and what equates to an Appleseed landmate or Tau battlesuit.
Powered armour is simply worn, while the landmate or battlesuit are closer to being 'piloted' or 'driven'. They're more or less one-man bipedal armoured fighting vehicles, while power armoured troops are heavy infantry.
In my rules, powered armour is covered by the normal infantry rules, and anything big enough to carry its operator's dead-weight is covered by vehicle rules, much of its performance statistics being detatched from the pilot's. The power suit at the very end of the document is an example of such a bipedal AFV.

Kathara Khan wrote:
And one thing I forgat before. If you're not posting it online, when (if ever) will PD be available in print then? Some of the stuff in the 40K mod is hard to understand without a proper rules context.

"When it's done." :P
I may distribute the Plausible Deniability rules file when I update it to beta 1.7, but if you have any questions about how things work or if there's anything you want me to try and make sense of, just ask.

_________________
Warhammer 40,000 5th edition
The least worst rules for 40K.

The purpose of writing is to inflate weak ideas, obscure poor reasoning, and inhibit clarity.
With a little practice, writing can be an intimidating and impenetrable fog, behind which halftruths and untruths can frolic and procreate unmolested.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 34 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  

cron

Powered by phpBB ® Forum Software © phpBB Group