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Space Elves

 Post subject: Space Elves
PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2007 1:34 am 
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Elves have been a staple of 'high-fantasy' for as long as the genre has existed. Their depiction is usually derivative - in one way or another - of the elves featured in Lord of the Rings. But they're such a widespread, accepted, stock fantasy race; I don't think anyone is ever really bothered that they may be derivative. Everyone has their own version or own interpretation of fantasy elves. I'm sure there are many people who expect them, and would be disappointed or disinterested in a fantasy setting if it didn't include a familiar representation of their favourite fictional race.

Space elves on the other hand, are to my knowledge, more or less exclusively the domain of Warhammer 40,000.
Eldar, and 40K in general, have come a long way from their beginnings as Warhammer Fantasy races transplanted to flaccid Science-Fiction. But at their core, that's what Eldar were, and still are to a degree. Warhammer-tinted Tolkenian elves in space.

I can't think of any other major Science-Fiction or space fantasy setting that features what could unambiguously be referred to as space elves.
I think the Shadowrun setting features elves, but, one way or another, I don't think Shadowrun counts.
Vulcans from Star Trek are very much elven in many respects, but they seem to lack any of the mythology or imagery and are otherwise just too bland and too much like everyone else in the setting to draw close parallels with high-fantasy elves.
There is probably some example I'm overlooking, so if you think of anything please point it out.

Then again, 'high-fantasy in space' settings aren't that common, as far as I know.
Star Wars is the only other major space fantasy universe I can think of.

As far as supposedly intelligent technologically advanced space elves go, I don't think Eldar have been executed very well.
There are numerous reasons for this, first and foremost being that Game$ Work$hop is focussed on selling models, and everything else is secondary. The models come before the rules, and the rules come before the background, so one way or another, the Eldar come out pretty backwards, and as a race, fight using the same world war one tactics as every other race featured in the table-top game.

You couldn't have a truly intelligent, truly technologically advanced race of space elves, because releasing nano-viruses, or shoving anti-matter bombs through webway portals into capital cities, or otherwise just death-raying things from beyond visual range doesn't make for that great a wargame.

However, I think it would be possible to meet half-way to some degree, in portraying intelligent, technologically advanced, enigmatic, capricious, self-serving and often malevolent, flamboyantly-styled space elves.
Especially space elves that are supposedly a dying race.

So is anyone interested in discussing – or just listening to my ideas – on how this could be done?
Anyone have any opinions on the Eldar or how they could be improved? Not necessarily in a table-top wargame sense, more in terms of their background and overall portrayal. They could stay exactly the same for wargaming purposes; the ideas could only affect the more commonplace interactions of the Eldar, or how they conduct their business on a more strategic level.
I bring this up mainly because I’m working on detailed rules for Eldar equipment and technology for role-playing.

And most importantly, do you think it would be possible for a Science-Fiction or space fantasy setting to feature what amount to space elves, without being universally derided as entirely derivative of 40K Eldar?

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2007 5:44 am 
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i am interested in reading your thoughts on the subject: this first post alone has been quite interesting. Though i think you are being a bit unfair on the Eldar (for those not in the know, the very name "Eldar" is nicked out of tolkein), the ridiculous tactics they (like everyone else) end up using are due to the way the game is played. As you pointed out Alastair Reynolds style wiping everyone out from light minutes away wouldn't be a terribly entertaining tabletop game. I personally imagined that (contrary to some of the fluff) the overwhelming majority of actual troop deployments would be surgical -and seemingly random- aspect warrior strikes intended to influence events decades or even centuries down the line. The eldar are aliens after all, and with that comes a very inhuman mindset (something i think a lot of players overlook with all the non-humans)

As for another setting using Space Elves, the only reason i could think of for having them would be if you were doing the same as RT, and transposing a fantasy setting into a Sci-Fi one. which would in a way be derivative of 40k.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2007 9:25 am 
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In a space setting I came up with a few years ago, I took the idea of the Romulans-as-Dark-Elves, toned down the contemporaneus-magic a bit, juiced the 'mystical antiquity' in a few places, and ended up with an interesting, off-beat, bloodthirsty-in-a-completely-alien-way race... But that's just one man who runs games for a handful of others.

Yes, by all means, Robbie, let's talk about this.

Shiver's "generational commandoes" is a very intriguing idea...

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2007 11:01 am 
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Back in the 80's a fantasy RPG called Talislanta was released. It claimed to be extremely rich and detailed, but the ads they ran in Dragon magazine proudly proclaimed "NO ELVES" as (seemingly) the best feature of the game. This seemed like a clear backlash against the elf obsession that runs through RPG products. Ironically, the game itself featured over a dozen playable races, at least three of which were obviously derived from typical fantasy elves (they just weren't called elves).

Many sci-fi games have elf-like races. Recognizably human, but more mature and refined, having overcome the baser urges that plague humanity. Often they are a sort of mentor race to humans... unless they're trying to kill us. Vulcans certainly qualify. Minbari from Babylon 5 seem elf-like to me.

I guess an important question to ask would be: Just how derivative and fantasy-like do you want space elves to be? The 40K Eldar are exceptionally derivative... literally fantasy elves that were crudely slapped on to a sci-fi setting. On the other end of the spectrum, I think the Naram from FASA's old Renegade Legion setting were perhaps the most mild expression of the "humans, only better" theme. They were essentially humans but still had the usual qualities of elves... being physically beautiful, longer lived, more harmonious culture, etc. You got many of the features of elves but you didn't feel like you were being slapped in the face with someone's uncontrollable elf fetish.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2007 10:15 pm 
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One thing I find odd about the Eldar is their specialisation. Specialisation is for primitive creatures. Most of their units are focussed on doing one thing, and are dependant on each other for mutual support.
I think that with a greater level of technology comes a greater potential for tactical independence and self-sufficiency.
With the Eldar’s level of technology, every wet dream of present-day scientists, soldiers and generals is not only possible, but very, very old news.

I like Guardians; the models are good, they’re a decent troop type, and in the tabletop context, they fit well into the rest of the army.
But if you’re a technologically advanced dying race, what business do you have deploying citizen militia? Fairly unsophisticated militia at that, not counting the enhancements an accompanying Warlock can provide.

So, I prefer the idea of a better equipped, better integrated, more independent, more autonomous Eldar warrior, who is not so much a jack of all trades, but a master of many.
Supported by numerous robots.

I think the Eldar’s greatest weakness should be an irrational conceited stubbornness – a complete lack of humility. They have all the technology, all the knowledge, all the skill, but outright refuse to change or adapt by learning from their enemies. Not out of any reverence for those that have gone before them and established the present-day infrastructure, or for adherence to convention or tradition, but simply because of the careless rationale that they obviously shouldn’t have to adapt. The utter disdain they feel towards the other races of the galaxy prevents the Eldar from understanding them.
On a small scale, the highly perceptive Eldar would be capable of making astute observations of the enemy and adapting their approach quickly and efficiently. But at a more strategic level, the idea of enacting change due to external pressure from some insignificant herd of lesser beings is totally unconscionable.

Essentially, their foreign policy would have a dangerous self-destructive arrogance. I think they’d literally rather die than admit their approach is wrong, or that they could learn from their enemies, or that they might be more successful if they actually acknowledged other races as fellow sentient beings.
I think this attitude would have a great deal of sustainability, given that most of the time, the Eldar will outclass their adversaries by several orders of magnitude. So usually, their total contempt for the other inhabitants of the galaxy won’t get a chance to come back and bite them in the arse.

All throughout 2nd edition, Eldar were considered to be part of the ‘good guys’. In 3rd edition, they were altered to be far more self-serving and far removed from the image of being friendly, helpful, benevolent space elves. But to this day, I think a lot of, or possibly most people, still think of Eldar as being ‘good’.
I think that when encountered, Craftworld Eldar should be regarded as every bit as dangerous as Traitor Marines, Orks, Tyranids, and Eldar Pirates, possible even more so given their intelligence and advanced technology. The only thing that would make them less of an actual threat is that they’re not all about mindless destruction, consumption or enslavement all the time – only when it fits their purposes. On very rare occasions they can be reasoned with, and sometimes you’ll have a common enemy.
I think Eldar have a great deal of potential to be a whole lot creepier. They’re not merely wise, pointy-eared humans with long lifespans, who long ago conquered their emotions. They’re dangerous aliens with an incomprehensible psionic technological infrastructure and a massive superiority complex, and the fact that they look almost human should only make them freakier.

No matter how an Eldar is interacting with the lesser being, he would be incapable of seeing a human or other sentient creature, as directly analogous to anything more than an exotic and dangerous alien rat, that wants to plunder and soil his grain stores and kill him in his sleep. They wouldn’t even necessarily be malicious about it – they wouldn’t whine and complain to each other about ‘filthy mon-keigh’, they’d be cold and clinical in the way that they kill you, exploit you, manipulate you, or ignore you.
The only thing stopping the Eldar from splitting your skull open just to see what’s inside it, on the slightest whim of curiosity, is that he doesn’t want to suffer the inconvenience of soiling his blade with your innards. That your friends may shoot him after he cleaves your head may not even cross his mind.

Following those lines of reasoning, what you’d end up with isn’t anything like Tolkenian elves in space though, is it? Good. :P



Now, on to the gear.

I don't think any reputable Eldar would leave his Craftworld without this:

War Skin, 50 points: Encumberment 2/6 [meaning it weighs 6 kilograms, but since you're wearing it, only counts as 2]. A skin-tight suit that almost all Eldar wear beneath clothing and armour when venturing outside of their Craftworlds or into battle. Made primarily from a fabric externally similar in texture to finely scaled snakeskin, it is breathable while protecting the Eldar from excessive heat and cold, moisture, harmful chemicals and radiation, and suppressing the wearer’s infrared signature. It also integrates several conforming armoured nodules and blisters containing sub-systems and interfaces, and a small backpack unit with the primary function of providing a long-term source of low-output power, which can also be used for recharging standard power crystals. When combined with an appropriate helmet, the war skin allows the wearer to survive in a vacuum or in an environment of harmful hydraulic or pneumatic pressure, and the backpack unit can generate modest thrust for manoeuvring in zero gravity and underwater. It can filter poisonous atmospheres into breathable air, and contains a limited internal air supply, which will automatically replenish itself in a clean atmosphere.
The suit provides a small amount of armour protection, becoming momentarily rigid in the localised area when struck by an attack, and it has a limited ability to repair itself, sealing cuts and punctures, and releasing an expanding foam web that attempts to close larger gaps and tears. The wearer’s health status is monitored and their bodily functions regulated, providing several days sustenance through stored proteins, nutrients and recycling, and in case of injury the suit will minimise damage, automatically administer stimulants and regenerative compounds, and over extended time, aid in recovery.
All of this serves to greatly simplify the needs of an Eldar warrior, ranger or adventurer while abroad or in battle, providing them with all of the basic equipment they need to function in a hostile environment, and greatly reducing the logistical requirements of any group of Eldar in the field.
Armoured Bodyglove Armour 5 31/E0/1.5, Environmentally Sealed 4/E1, Vacuum Rated 5, self-sealing, unlimited gas mask 4/E1, self-replenishing 3-hour air supply 6/E1.5, Submersible 5, infrared camouflage 6/E0/1, automatic medical monitor/kit 10/E1.25, water manoeuvre jets/low gravity thrusters, 10,000 hour low-output power supply, can recharge a single power crystal in the space of 30 minutes, at the expenditure of 10 hours remaining power.

And I don't think any Eldar would want to find himself in combat without one of these:

War Mantle, 45 points: Encumberment 1.5/3. The war mantle is an array of standard equipment normally incorporated within a helmet, gorget, and vambraces, or other armour worn by an Eldar. Operated by the wearer’s thoughts through a direct mental interface, the war mantle keeps an Eldar seamlessly connected with his weapons and equipment, in close contact with his comrades, acutely aware of his surroundings, and constantly apprised of the broader Eldar-centric tactical situation as a whole. The information provided through the war mantle is unobtrusively overlayed onto the Eldar’s own senses and thoughts; he simply knows the location of enemies detected by other nearby Eldar, he is innately aware of the positions of allies and the direction of objectives, he can call for assistance without verbally relaying coordinates and descriptions, and he can designate targets for other Eldar just by looking and thinking.
CPU 4/E1 with mind link 5, incorporating comm-web link/team radio 6/E.5, environment sensors 3, full peripheral low-light 5/E.5 and infrared imaging 8/E1, illuminator 2, binocular vision 2, photon goggles 2, active ear defenders 5, and the effect of a 1x-9x 18/E.25 starlight 4/E.25 scope with scope link 6/E.25 and infrared laser sight (same effect, but does not utilise a laser) 8/E0 for all appropriate Eldar weapons.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2007 8:54 am 
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again there i think you're being a bit unfair on the eldar. I don't think it was ever overtly stated that the eldar were supposed to be the good guys, in fact the way you just presented them was always implicit in the background. People just lazily tagged them as good guys because it was easier than trying to outline something as murky as what you just did. And because they always appeared clean and quite brightly coloured. :roll: They tried to emphasise the more dangerous and self serving side in 3rd ed, but i can't see it was that effective.

I do think you've done a very good job of outlining the way the eldar should be presented, dangerous, selfish, hostile and quite unwilling to change or adapt. But, i also think you've just placed the correct emphasis on certain existing areas of the fluff.

As for specialisation, yeah i get what you mean. I like the idea of aspect warriors (ritualised soldiers like spartan hoplites), but some of the aspects are sorta one trick ponies.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2007 1:10 pm 
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Quote:
One thing I find odd about the Eldar is their specialisation. Specialisation is for primitive creatures. Most of their units are focussed on doing one thing, and are dependant on each other for mutual support.
Well that is the point of the eldar "path" system is it not, they once tasted every fruit from the tree, they did everything and anything they wanted and thats why slaanesh was born. The idea of specialisation came from this I thought. If an eldar gives in to its lusts the great enemy growns stronger so they live a very restricted lifestyle, doing one thing at a time. Be it fight a certain way, make a certain thing or only play bingo on thursday it is an integral part of the eldar and one that the aspects reflect.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2007 3:11 pm 
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shiver85 wrote:
again there i think you're being a bit unfair on the eldar. I don't think it was ever overtly stated that the eldar were supposed to be the good guys, in fact the way you just presented them was always implicit in the background. People just lazily tagged them as good guys because it was easier than trying to outline something as murky as what you just did. And because they always appeared clean and quite brightly coloured. :roll:
Yeah, Robbie ---- "Good" in the 40k Universe is a pretty dicey proposition. Eldar are merely "Against Chaos" ... So they line up under "Order" but that by itself doesn't make them "Good" :)

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2007 4:00 pm 
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Yeh it makes them sissies! :lol:

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2007 5:27 pm 
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Eldar are isolationists like most of the races in 40k, they couldn't care less about other peoples misfortunes and only get involved in something if it's absolutely necessary.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2007 3:17 am 
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I never said Eldar were stated as being good, I said most people thought of them as being part of the ‘good guys’. I still don’t think Game$ Work$hop has ever done a whole lot to discourage that point of view – it’s an assumption they let people make.
Though if you look into the background, there really isn’t any indication that Eldar have ever been anything other than hostile towards the Imperium and humanity, and that the number of humans named in the background who are likely to have ever had a civilised conversation with an Eldar, can probably be counted on one hand.

I like all of the Eldar Aspects (except Shining Spears, they’re a bit of a lost cause), and similar to Guardians, they fit nicely into the army in a tabletop and aesthetic sense, as well as being incorporated into the Eldar mythology. But if I was an Eldar prince, I don’t think I’d accept any artificial limits on my capacity to dominate my personal battlespace.
I guess this is where the Eldar Path system comes into it, though I don’t think there’s any really good reason not to have a ‘Path Of The Full-Spectrum Warrior’.
Practically all Aspect Warriors have identical stats, with equal skills at close range and long range, and they tend to have both ranged and close combat weapons, though with a focus on one area. Higher ranked Aspect Warriors have access to equally powerful ranged and close combat weapons.

Within the contextual reality I don’t think the Path system provides sufficient justification for the narrow specialisation. I think it only makes sense in a context of aesthetics, design and game-ism – which always wins in the end.
For more than the usual reasons you might expect from me, I don’t think ‘chaos’ and Slaanesh should enter into it. What separates one Path or one Aspect from another is a matter of degrees, and the level of overlap or overload at which point the Eldar’s soul/psyche/mentality is put at risk is an unquantifiable measure.
The tactically handicapped Eldar are already equipped, trained for, and operating in multiple capacities. They’ve just been artificially hamstrung into not being particularly good at more then one thing.

Any comments on the gear?
Here's some more.

Eldar Explosives

While explosives commonly employed by the Eldar perform much the same function as any other races’, usually with no significant difference in yield, the devices of the Eldar have a great deal more utility due to the multiple additional features built into their design. These features are accessible by direct mental interface through the device owner’s War Mantle. Anything beyond the basic explosive functionality is inaccessible to anyone without the appropriately attuned War Mantle interface.
Most devices may be thrown like a Grenade or placed. All devices are capable of securely adhering to a solid surface, or of attaching to a soft or loose surface with deployable barbed pins.
They may be set to a timed detonation, to remote command detonation via the user’s War Mantle, or programmed with parameters for proximity detonation. Standard proximity detonation parameters are noted in a device’s description, but they may be re-programmed with very specific parameters for detonation, including abstract and nuanced distinctions between friend and foe or with a very specific target, as conveyed from the user’s thoughts and memories during programming.
Note that when set to proximity detonation, a device will not explode until just as a potential target begins moving away from it. This is to facilitate detonation when a target is as close as it is going to get, but it may work to the target’s advantage if they spot the device and are familiar with its standard operating parameters, and consequently choose to not move away from it. However, this is of little use if the device’s owner is still within communication range, receives notification, and commands the device to detonate.
Each device contains a 360º video sensor with low light capability, an audio sensor and a speaker, which may all be accessed through the user’s War Mantle. Devices may be programmed with parameters for transmitting information or video feed to the user.
Programming a device is a Full action. Detonating a single device or all deployed devices is a Free action. Detonating a group of devices, all within the user’s field of vision, though not necessarily within line of sight, is an Additional action. Detonating up to 3 devices not within the user’s field of vision is an Additional action. Detonating up to 6 devices not within the user’s field of vision is a Full action.

So, even the most throwaway Eldar items like hand grenades (excuse the pun), would be packed with more technology of a level of sophistication that many races wouldn't even be capable of on a much larger scale.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2007 3:10 pm 
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RobbieBuckshotLaFunk wrote:
Any comments on the gear?
Yes. What game system are all those codes for/from?

Direct commentary re: the gear -- I like it. But good luck balancing that, depending on where you're using it. :D

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 5:49 am 
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It's for a 40K mod. to my own role-playing/skirmish system.
I was mainly interested in what you thought concept-wise, rather than rules-wise.
But yeah, balancing subconsciously fully networked sensor platforms against two-way radios and hand-eye coordination could prove problematic. :P

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 10:38 am 
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I really like your gear concepts. They sound great for a highly-technical, highly psychic, advanced race. I love the options for grenades. The combat armor is cool to. The kind of stuff I'd want to wear into battle.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 8:20 pm 
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Adoni-Zedek wrote:
I really like your gear concepts. They sound great for a highly-technical, highly psychic, advanced race. I love the options for grenades. The combat armor is cool to. The kind of stuff I'd want to wear into battle.
Quoted for Redundancy

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