Login |  Register |  FAQ
   
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 10 posts ] 

Space Wolves Thunderwolf Cavalry

 Post subject: Space Wolves Thunderwolf Cavalry
PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 11:23 pm 
Offline
Officer of the Watch
Officer of the Watch

Joined: Wed Feb 03, 2010 8:24 am
Posts: 423
Location: Berlin/Germany
Since my UO's brother is going to buy a Space Wolves army, I thought about making some rules for them. After some consideration, the only pssible solution seems to be, to make those wolves monsters, otherwise riding Wolf Guards with something like 2+ save (cavalry) WS 8 (+2 charge bonus seems appropriate for those wolves if they are cavalry) and 16-18 charge range is simply too much, especially if they come around with Stormshields...

I guess I'll suggest him something like:

Thunderwolf Cavalry:

0-1 per army

Size: 5 WG on Thunderwolves

Costs: 31 (Wolf Guard without Bolter, counts against the 20 WG limit per model) + 30-40 pts. per wolf

Equipment: Bolt Pistol, Frag Grenades, may take assault weapons and Stormshields

Thunderwolves: M 9, WS 5, BS 0, S 5, T 5, W 2, I 6, A 2, LD 9

Separate model, counts as monstrous targets (or vehicles), may break from combat with non monstrous targets, if one of both is slain, the other model continues alone (hmm, this would cause coherency issues, if its the wolf). Acute senses.

Something along this line.

Any suggestions?

Yes, I know, the Space Wolves get a nice unit which they do not need, but can make good use of, but its not for my army and I have no problems facing them.

_________________
For once, his father did what Tyrion asked him. The proof was the sudden stench, as his bowels loosend in the moment of death. Well, he was in the right place for it, Tyrion thought. But the stink that filled the privy gave ample evidence, that the oft-repeated jape about his father was just another lie.
Lord Tywin Lannister did not, in the end, (&#$@!) gold.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Space Wolves Thunderwolf Cavalry
PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2013 11:37 am 
Offline
Lance Corporal
Lance Corporal
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 08, 2009 1:06 am
Posts: 171
Location: Germany
I see it the cavalry is the Wolgfguard's equivalent of being mounted on bikes, so I would simply add the wolves as an option to the Wolfguard entry and not make them a separate unit.

The stats you came up with are quite good. I would only decrease I and Ld. Your statline could be the one for Fangris of Canis Wolfblood.

They would be then:

Thunderwolves: M 9, WS 5, BS 0, S 5, T 5, W 2, I 4, A 2, LD 6

Thinking about the Stormshields I see no problem, but has to be playtested. Also, I would rule the Wolfguard who get dismounted by shooting the wolf, will suffer damage as if falling from a fast moving vehicle depending on the distance moved.

+40 pts. is along the lines of Khorne Juggernauts (50 pts.), which are much slower and have WS 3!

_________________
"We do not destroy you because of what you are, but of what you might become."


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Space Wolves Thunderwolf Cavalry
PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2013 12:54 pm 
Offline
Officer of the Watch
Officer of the Watch

Joined: Wed Feb 03, 2010 8:24 am
Posts: 423
Location: Berlin/Germany
Actually the restriction of one unit of 5 is just due to its rarity (according to current lore) and to remove the possibility of seeing a large mounted army.

Edit2: I have changed my mind, adding Thunderwolves as an option is a good way of dealing with them, they may then only take additional assault weapons and/or buy a Stormshield for 10 pts. The wolves cost 37 pts. (3 pts. discount due to having a wasted Bolter).

I also want to keep the Bolter WG come with from wasting 3 pts. and remove the special/heavy weapons option.

I wanted to lower the WS to 4 but nothing is finalized as of yet, with I 4 they could get a thematic scent ability (spot hidden models in thrice the I range).

I also think 30 points is too cheap and intend to make it 40, Juggernaut costs 50 and is slower, I know, but with W 3 and especially the Daemonic Aura its will not leave the model on foot so easily. Juggernaut has no dismount penalty and I want to keep it simple, although the idea is quite funny and could lead to one of those typical 2nd Ed. crashes. :)

The Stormshield is imo fine, since it removes the possibility of A 2 (he still gets it if he attacks after his mount but then he puts it into jeopardy).

Hmm maybe:

Thunderwolves: M 9, WS 4, BS 0, S 5, T 5, W 2, I 4, A 2, LD 6

Costs: 40 pts.

Abilities:

Scent: Spot hidden models in triple I range

Pounce: + 2 on WS while charging (maybe lowering WS to 3, although I don't like that)

May break from HtH freely if engaged with non monstrous targets/Dreadnoughts, according to standard rules for breaking off (Codex Chaos page 65).

Optional: Rend, attacks deal D3 damage (lower T to 4 to compensate)

Edit: According to lore, their fur is as strong as steel, maybe they could get a 4+ or 5+ save (not much but it might help).

Final question: Do they count as vehicles or infantry for choosing the target rules? I would say the former.

FAQ:

(Q): Are Wolf Guards allowed to ride a Thunderwolf and wear Terminator Armour?

(A): No! (SQ)

_________________
For once, his father did what Tyrion asked him. The proof was the sudden stench, as his bowels loosend in the moment of death. Well, he was in the right place for it, Tyrion thought. But the stink that filled the privy gave ample evidence, that the oft-repeated jape about his father was just another lie.
Lord Tywin Lannister did not, in the end, (&#$@!) gold.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Space Wolves Thunderwolf Cavalry
PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2013 4:34 am 
Offline
Lance Corporal
Lance Corporal
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 08, 2009 1:06 am
Posts: 171
Location: Germany
Since my UO currently told me enthusiastically about having purchased some wolf cavalry :roll: , I have to get my mind back again on the topic.

Lutscha wrote:
Actually the restriction of one unit of 5 is just due to its rarity (according to current lore) and to remove the possibility of seeing a large mounted army.

Edit2: I have changed my mind, adding Thunderwolves as an option is a good way of dealing with them, they may then only take additional assault weapons and/or buy a Stormshield for 10 pts. The wolves cost 37 pts. (3 pts. discount due to having a wasted Bolter).

I also want to keep the Bolter WG come with from wasting 3 pts. and remove the special/heavy weapons option.


I don't see the Bolter being wasted. Why not leave the option for taking special weapons and have a very reliable bike unit on wolves instead of bikes? (No skidturns, no falling off a moving vehicle, no sideeffects if bike blows up etc.)

Lutscha wrote:
I wanted to lower the WS to 4 but nothing is finalized as of yet, with I 4 they could get a thematic scent ability (spot hidden models in thrice the I range).

I also think 30 points is too cheap and intend to make it 40, Juggernaut costs 50 and is slower, I know, but with W 3 and especially the Daemonic Aura its will not leave the model on foot so easily. Juggernaut has no dismount penalty and I want to keep it simple, although the idea is quite funny and could lead to one of those typical 2nd Ed. crashes. :)

The Stormshield is imo fine, since it removes the possibility of A 2 (he still gets it if he attacks after his mount but then he puts it into jeopardy).

Hmm maybe:

Thunderwolves: M 9, WS 4, BS 0, S 5, T 5, W 2, I 4, A 2, LD 6

Costs: 40 pts.

Abilities:

Scent: Spot hidden models in triple I range


That scent ability adds neatly to the fluff.

Lutscha wrote:
Pounce: + 2 on WS while charging (maybe lowering WS to 3, although I don't like that)


I don't see why the wolves should get another boon in HtH.

Lutscha wrote:
May break from HtH freely if engaged with non monstrous targets/Dreadnoughts, according to standard rules for breaking off (Codex Chaos page 65).


They do not have neither the size nor the bulk of a juggernaut and should, with the exception of Fangris, not be able to pull that trick.

Lutscha wrote:
Optional: Rend, attacks deal D3 damage (lower T to 4 to compensate)


That makes them badass charakter-/monsterkillers. I just do not like them being that far better than their riders.

Lutscha wrote:
Edit: According to lore, their fur is as strong as steel, maybe they could get a 4+ or 5+ save (not much but it might help).


Yep. 5+ save sounds fine to me.

Lutscha wrote:
Final question: Do they count as vehicles or infantry for choosing the target rules? I would say the former.


According to your intention of making them monstrous in HtH, you should count them as monstrous targets when firing at them, too.
If seeing them not as monstrous, since cavalry per se is not a category of its own, we stay with your principle of keeping things simple and categorize them as infantry, adding to their chances of survival when fired at.

Lutscha wrote:
FAQ:

(Q): Are Wolf Guards allowed to ride a Thunderwolf and wear Terminator Armour?

(A): No! (SQ)


Exactly.

With all those changes in mind, I'm still thinking of making them cavalry W 1, as I see them more as an alternative for taking bikes rather than monstrous cavalry. This would also solve some issues (Squad coherency when wolf is slain, mount being much better than WG rider etc.), while on the other hand make Carnis Wolfborne and Fangris something special and not being one amongst many.

So, maybe this:

Wolfguards may choose to ride a Thunderwolf at a cost of 32 pts./model

Thunderwolves: M 9, WS 4, BS 0, S 5, T 5, W 1, I 4, A 2, LD 6

Cavalry, Scent (triple I when detecting hidden enemies), Rider may take Stormshield at 10pts., Fear, Ferocious: When charging, Thunderwolves add an additional +1A. (This is to counter the fact, the rider does NOT get a save bonus fro his mount)

This setup increases the already excellent HtH abilities and adds to the speed of the Wolfguard without turning them into a killer unit.

_________________
"We do not destroy you because of what you are, but of what you might become."


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Space Wolves Thunderwolf Cavalry
PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2013 11:05 am 
Offline
Officer of the Watch
Officer of the Watch

Joined: Wed Feb 03, 2010 8:24 am
Posts: 423
Location: Berlin/Germany
I like your changes and I think, they are more playable that way.

Just 2 observations:

1. The + 1 A when charging is superfluous, since they already have A 2, which gives the rider A 3-4. A reduction to A 1 might be in order.

2. They are rather expensive compared to other mounts (I guess that due to causing fear).

_________________
For once, his father did what Tyrion asked him. The proof was the sudden stench, as his bowels loosend in the moment of death. Well, he was in the right place for it, Tyrion thought. But the stink that filled the privy gave ample evidence, that the oft-repeated jape about his father was just another lie.
Lord Tywin Lannister did not, in the end, (&#$@!) gold.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Space Wolves Thunderwolf Cavalry
PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2013 2:55 pm 
Offline
Lance Corporal
Lance Corporal
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 08, 2009 1:06 am
Posts: 171
Location: Germany
Agreed. I intend to set the cost for a Thunderwolf at 27pts. Thus it is still cheaper than the obvious Terminator armour choice for 30pts. in its standard configuration (StB & PF), but can be enhanced by adding the Stormshield for 10pts. I thought about 26pts., but then the Spacewolf player would get a totallly untypical even cost for them (34 WG + 26 TW + 10 Shield), which would simply be totally un-wolvish...

Attilan Warhorses and Cyboars are at 15pts., while Exodite Dragons are about 20pts. But their riders are pale compared to the abilities of the Wolfguard.

Ok, this is the consensus, then:


Wolfguards may choose to ride a Thunderwolf at a cost of 27 pts./model

Thunderwolves: M 9, WS 4, BS 0, S 5, T 4, W 1, I 4, A 1, LD 6

Cavalry (Thunderwolves stay wild predators and do NOT confer a +1 to the save of the rider)
Scent (triple I when detecting hidden enemies)
Fear
Ferocious (When charging, Thunderwolves add +1A)
Wolfguard riding on Thunderwolves may take additional weapons from the assault weapons list or special weapons list. In addition, when taking one single assault weapon a Wolfguard may take a Stormshield at 10pts.

_________________
"We do not destroy you because of what you are, but of what you might become."


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Space Wolves Thunderwolf Cavalry
PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2013 6:25 am 
Offline
Lance Corporal
Lance Corporal

Joined: Sun Mar 28, 2010 6:38 am
Posts: 161
I think you may rethink about this cavalry as Eldar's primitives one on sorta Dinosaurs : better save, more Attack charachteristics, but not as Monstruous target and no more with subdivision between Rider and Beast. Too complicated, and the most of the Wolfs strengh is used to carry these grey-armored giants about more than 400-500 pds weight...

_________________
[Please apologize my weak English -I'm not a goddamn guy, I'm French one. And, not, this is not da same thing : / ]


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Space Wolves Thunderwolf Cavalry
PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2013 8:34 am 
Offline
Officer of the Watch
Officer of the Watch

Joined: Wed Feb 03, 2010 8:24 am
Posts: 423
Location: Berlin/Germany
I said already, that I'm fine with Shadowseer's stats. ;)

_________________
For once, his father did what Tyrion asked him. The proof was the sudden stench, as his bowels loosend in the moment of death. Well, he was in the right place for it, Tyrion thought. But the stink that filled the privy gave ample evidence, that the oft-repeated jape about his father was just another lie.
Lord Tywin Lannister did not, in the end, (&#$@!) gold.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Space Wolves Thunderwolf Cavalry
PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2013 7:10 am 
Offline
Lance Corporal
Lance Corporal
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 08, 2009 1:06 am
Posts: 171
Location: Germany
Lutscha wrote:
FAQ:

(Q): Are Wolf Guards allowed to ride a Thunderwolf and wear Terminator Armour?

(A): No! (SQ)


I sent the stats and rules to my UO, guess what he asked first? :cry:

P.S. I will playtest the Thunderwolves along my version of 2nd ed Repentia, Flamewing Seraphim and St. Celestine. Afterwards I will think about adjusting the points cost again. Could well be a while until this playtesting happens, so please be patient with me.

_________________
"We do not destroy you because of what you are, but of what you might become."


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Space Wolves Thunderwolf Cavalry
PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2013 7:52 am 
Offline
Officer of the Watch
Officer of the Watch

Joined: Wed Feb 03, 2010 8:24 am
Posts: 423
Location: Berlin/Germany
You might also add, that Ragnar's Wolf Howl does not triple the charge range, 27 inch is a bit high.

_________________
For once, his father did what Tyrion asked him. The proof was the sudden stench, as his bowels loosend in the moment of death. Well, he was in the right place for it, Tyrion thought. But the stink that filled the privy gave ample evidence, that the oft-repeated jape about his father was just another lie.
Lord Tywin Lannister did not, in the end, (&#$@!) gold.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 10 posts ] 


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  

cron

Powered by phpBB ® Forum Software © phpBB Group