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Britain in the not so distant future

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 05, 2007 5:18 pm 
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easy mate! :P we don't want to go too far down the cossacks/ AoE road (yes, i play old computer games, bite me).

But, ammo, food, fuel are all going to be a problem, and should be represented somehow. Water not so much (I dunno if you live in britain man, but water is not something we generally have a problem with, least not where i live, it rains faaar to much)


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 05, 2007 6:07 pm 
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Not that I want to crap on your parade or anything, but any cataclysmic event that causes the country to devolve to such a point will need to be a worldwide one. Or at least a first-worldwide one. Otherwise, if Britain were to just collapse in this way another country (oh, off the top of my head, let's say the USA) would just roll in and plant their flag. We'd all be be losing the ability to put the letter u after o and the letter s would disappear to be replaced by z (pronounced zee instead of zed in this nightmarish view of the future). Anyhoo, the cataclysm would need to be a worldwide one, even if the game is limited to near future Britain. And it would probably need to be something that dismantles the military almost entirely, otherwise they would just have taken control completely.

I don't think it matters that there are not that many guns in the UK. I imagine in this future setting the poulation would have seen a radical decrease, so there would be a higher ratio of guns to people. And there are plenty of illegal guns in Britain (especially in bigger cities like London, or those inhabited by insane people, like Manchester). Moreover, I think the game would be good if things like rifles were a bit of a luxury. Even stuff like a handgun could be prized possessions. It would be nice if the game could run without a firearm being mandatory for every single member of the gang.

As for the game mechanics, is it going to borrow heavily from the Necromunda ruleset shiver. I think the Mordheim exploration idea would suit very well for a game setting like this. Even the rare trade system from Mordheim might work. Or would you even have rare trade in a game like this? Could the whole rare trade thing be replaced by a system which lets you modify your weaponry?

Also, have you seen Children of Men shiver? It isn't a great film, but it is set in near future Britain (about 2030 I'd say) and it has some interesting ideas. The cataclysm that has brought the world down in this film is that humanity has spontaneously become infertile (for no reason... it is just to set-up the "OMFG someone is pregnant" plot). The more interesting part is the way that Britain has become completely anti-immigrant to the point where they are rounding up immigrants and chucking them in guarded fenced in towns (essentially concentration camps) before they get dumped out of the country. When the immigrants rise up the military crushes them ruthlessly (with tanks amongst other things). But it might be worth seeing for some ideas anyway.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 05, 2007 6:29 pm 
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Hmm... sounds interesting. Although it is beginning to sound less like low-tech Necro and more like high-tech Mordheim (not a criticism).

Fluff-wise:
So basically... not the nuclear/war apocalypse.. but maybe, there was a huge shift in the earth's core metal (iron) which caused the earths centre to change dramatically drowning everyone except the british... and without the import of oil etc, britain became an anarchy or at least fairly rowdy... or perhaps just killer bunnies or something... who cares.

That aside.

Summary:
More close combat, smaller guns, less terrain, vehicles and different campaign rules?

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 12:45 am 
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yup goobah thats sounds about it.

add in a campagin events table and maybe resources. and vehicles.

i want to watch children of men, and right at your door, thats the kind of film i enjoy, though provoking ones

the setting is less relevant than the story line, but i think it funny to see the non UK people attitude to it. but i think that has died down so i will be quiet about it.

shiv i will help as much as i can.

i image the missions have more solid and more important objectives.

for example a small board may have 2-4 objective markers, which could represnt a gun stash, seeds, medical supplies or petrol. And each side has to get any or just a randomles designated one, that is unknown to the other.

with less terrain and more tangeble mission the game play will be different.

plus you could do random events vs wild dogs,, attacking bandits.

as stupid as this sounds this could almost work as a one play game... not sure why you would want to though.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 2:50 am 
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the widowmaker wrote:
Otherwise, if Britain were to just collapse in this way another country (oh, off the top of my head, let's say the USA) would just roll in and plant their flag. We'd all be be losing the ability to put the letter u after o and the letter s would disappear to be replaced by z (pronounced zee instead of zed in this nightmarish view of the future).

:lol:

"...before ze Yankees get here..." :P

I've seen Ali G Indahouse. The Berkshire massive will take over & we'll all be forced to wear (bright orange) camo & listen to speed garage.
----
Anyway, this kind of setting would benefit from having an extended armoury to cover all the random items available for tw*tting people round the head with.

& molotovs. Lots of molotovs.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 4:08 am 
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well yes, anything that turns britain into a lawless wilderness is prolly going to effect the rest of the world. cuz let's face it, we don't want the seppos rolling in and making it worse (i'd just hate to live in a world where spelling axe with an e becomes a mark of civil disobedience). but, like i said, someone else can come up with the "history," i'm just interested in the rural britain in anarchy setting really.

Game Mechanics are (as mentioned) going to be Necromunda, but changed to a D10 system. Weapon Strengths and person toughnesses will be respectively higher and lower (so getting shot really hurts, and isn't like it is in necro atm: "I've been shot!" "i don't f**king believe this, could everyone stop getting shot please?"). Advances will be based on necromunda, but because there will be a greater variety in stats (eg BS will be 1-10, not 1-6), there will be a greater number of advance 'levels' (please ask me if that made no sense :wink: ). Skills may need re-writing, maybe based on the =][= skill list. Post battle, hmmm, not really thought about that too much yet. but if we are going to have resources (fuel, ammo, food) it seems that its going to be a bit of a departure from either necro or mordheim. some sort of combined territory/ exploration thing mebbe... and probably the mordheim rare trade (which could also represent building items as well as trading for them)

Converting weapons; hmmm... its a thought certainly. certainly some weapons can be converted, or rechambered or whatever to fire faster or bigger bullets (eg the L1A1 SLR was commonly converted by troops to fire full auto). At the moment i'm quite keen on this weapon creation idea; it would allow players to represent the wide variety of modern firearms without needing to write a statline for each one...

level of tech; i'd like to see a few guns knocking around, but the assault rifles and smgs should be outnumbered by DB shotguns and old SLRs and the like. Like you said, there are a LOT of illegal guns knocking around the place. Oh, and a good variety of hitty things (everything from millwall bricks and cricket bats to katanas and claymores), got to have them gutterRunner. One of the reasons i count Dog Soldiers as an inspiration (apart form its britishness) is that when the ammo runs out they fight using a sword, an axe, boiling water, a claw hammer, a molotov etc etc... other than that a few pickups and landies (only a few as petrol is so rare), some military surplus stuff (night vision, respirators, grenades, possibly rebuilt ones, maybe the odd GPS unit), but generally low tech.

terrain; much less than necro, its a rural setting so old barns, walls/fences, hills and copses. lots of small pieces of cover to hide behind, but all on one level.

Speshul, i'm obliged, and anyone else who wants to help, you're more than welcome. Missions are going to need slightly different motives than in necromunda certainly...

I've not seen Children of Men yet widowmaker, but its going on the "to watch" list. I would also add Gangs of New York and Dead Man's Shoes to the list of films for getting the right flavour. Oh and that bbc series "IF" (If the lights go out, if women take over etc)


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 4:51 am 
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There was a bunch of articles in the Specialist Games mags about Mordheim games in rural settings. They might throw up a few good ideas for this as far as scenarios/game rules are concerned.

As far as the weapon lists go, well, most hitty things of the same type work more or less the same way so to get a playable difference between say a Lump Hammer & a Claw Hammer you could add in additional (optional?) rules allowing them to perform certain in-game or post-game functions. In this example both hammers have the same stats as weapons but the Claw hammer could make it easier for a fighter to gain access to a boarded up door/window & as a result of this cost more to 'buy'.

Getting ahead of myself now but it might be interesting to have a random background generator for recruiting fighters. Since you're not really gonna have much choice as to who you're gonna band together with you could easily randomise as to whether you get a Juve, Ganger, whatever & also what skill sets he has access to based on his previous life experience. With this you will get the odd shooty or CC heavy gang but most would be a mixture.

More when I get back in an hour or so...

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 5:31 am 
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well, cuz there'll be more varied S, a claw hammer could give +1S, a cricket bat +2, a sledge +3 etc etc. thats a big part of the reason for making it D10 based.

And i really like that background idea, it reminds me of that scene in 28 days later where the 3 survivors are hiding in the kiosk, sharing stories.

EDIT- been giving this some thought (i've been ill, not much else to do) and basically this is how it breaks down

RULES- game rules
Movement- as necromunda
Shooting- as necromuda except: Ranges are dependant on BS (ie a fighter with a high BS has a longer range than a fighter with a low BS). I'm thinking about basing the sus. fire rules more around the =][= rules; as there will be few heavy weapons and the like, and weapons like SMGs need their higher rate of fire representing. Wounding works much the same as necromunda, but will need the tables tinkering with. Armour will increase T rather than give a save, and Save Mod will instead decrease toughness.
HTH- much the same as Necromunda, but with significantly altered weapon stats (so giving someone a sword won't immediatly give them pro parry skills)
Psychology- much the same as necromunda, but maybe change it to a D10 system (if some one could give the probability of passing an Ld 7 test on 2d6 i'd be grateful)
Recovery- as necromunda, except I and Ld may be 1-10 on a D10
Armoury- weapon creation tables for HTH, Primitive ranged and firearm weapons. you pick a set of stats appropriate for the weapon your fighter is carrying. eg- claw hammer- HTH weapon, +1 S or Knife- HTH -1 T (so yes, they have much the same overall effect, but represented in different ways), sledge hammer HTH, +3S, needs both hands. these would all be priced (somehow, i have no idea how to set that sort of a complex chart out)
Equipment- as mentioned, some of the necromunda equipment is out. we'll want some low tech equipment to mix in as well

CAMPAIGNS exp, income etc.
Serious Injuries- pretty much good to go. although we could think about using the different weapon SI tables we were talking about before
Experience- more advances. skills will want redoing
Income, territories, rare trade etc.- not thought that far yet really
Scenarios- existing scenario table, scenarios will want reworking a bit

All just notions at the moment.


Last edited by shiver85 on Tue Feb 06, 2007 9:10 am, edited 3 times in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 8:46 am 
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D10 system = win in my view, we could actually use more of the chart than we do now and would be great for subtler variations of strength.

One thing that necro seems to be missing is a compact smg, somwhere between an autogun and an auto pistol, though it may just be GW's huge weapon of doom mini's that are throwing me off. :-)


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 9:01 am 
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Rift wrote:
D10 system = win in my view, we could actually use more of the chart than we do now and would be great for subtler variations of strength.

One thing that necro seems to be missing is a compact smg, somwhere between an autogun and an auto pistol, though it may just be GW's huge weapon of doom mini's that are throwing me off. :-)


Exactly, and exactly. i think you get what i'm trying to build here :D


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 10:22 am 
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Here goes some maths for you:

Leadership---Chance of passing test---Percentage (approx)---Closest D10 based equivalent
-----6---------------------15/36-----------------------41.67%---------------------Leadership 4
-----7---------------------21/36-----------------------58.33%---------------------Leadership 6
-----8---------------------26/36-----------------------72.22%---------------------Leadership 7
-----9---------------------30/36-----------------------83.33%---------------------Leadership 8
----10------------------...33/36-----------------------91.67%---------------------Leadership 9

So it seems it would be best to have juve level characters start at Ld 4, Gangers Ld 6 and Leaders Ld 7, with the maximum at Ld 8 (though in Necromunda characters can get to Ld10 with Impressive Scars). Since there is a 2 point gap between Juves and Gangers perhaps they should get 3 advances between 0 and 20 exp and then a mandatory Ld advance on becoming a ganger?

I'm still not sure on the D10 system though. The only D10 game I have played is VOID, and it sucked.

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Last edited by the widowmaker on Tue Feb 06, 2007 11:11 am, edited 3 times in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 10:29 am 
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cheers mate, that's exactly what i wanted to know :D

and i don't know how void worked. but this is going to be mainly necromunda, but with most of the D6 rolls replaced with D10s. because we're not selling this, we can basically ride necromunda's coat tails as much as we want :P (as long as we don't actually reproduce any copywrited material)

anyway, i've been looking at some suitable miniatures. so far the copplestone historical and future wars (bolshevik/neo sov in particular) look promising, and a range called "Tactical" i saw on Gamers-Quest. As well as some of the Hasselfree adventurers. any other suggestions?


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 12:03 pm 
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Try the Warstore site shiver. It stocks a few sci-fi games, and the ones worth looking at are probably Battlefield Evolution (so you can have guys driving around in Abrahams and Challenger IIs :D), Foundry Street Violence, Pig Iron Near Future, Urban War (only a few of these might be useful) and Rezolution 2175AD. That last one has some really nice 25mm Urban and Industrial bases that would be great for Necromunda by the way... and $4 for 8 isn't bad. That's like 25p a base in real money!

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 3:40 pm 
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On a side note, Necromunda D6 -> D10. Is that worth a gander. It seems like a lot of work... but I may get around to it (seem somewhat more busy these days).

Anyway, with the massive power reduction of weapons and such, I imagine that the whole cost system will need to be reworked to make everything more expensive so as to allow for differences in the lower level items.

Eg pistols/rifles may be move-or-fire (due to required reload times) but the same strength as an automatic weapon etc, but with autopistols (uzis) being 15 creds, there isn't a lot of room without using awkward numbers.

With a D10 System I imagine your stat line would look something like:

4 6 6 4 4 1 4 1 7 for a leader
4 5 5 4 4 1 4 1 6 for a ganger
4 4 4 4 4 1 4 1 5 for a juve

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 3:48 pm 
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It sounds like it's going to be a combat-based game with not so many guns going round. That in mind, I think the hth rules could probably do with some work. The Necro rules don't exactly make it easy to differentiate between weapons. Once you've done extra strength, parry, two handed, win/lose draws and anti-parry (chains), it seems you have to really stretch to make a distinctive ability. Designing hth weapons for the Necro system is hard. The Mordheim system gives us a lot more to play with in that respect, and perhaps some way of factoring reach into the equation would help. After all, a cricket bat has more advantage over a hammer than just extra strength. How about...

Combat is engaged at a distance equal to that of the highest reach weapon used by the fighter receiving the charge. Each point of reach removed from that value equals -1ws to the fighter. They can expend something (losing hits seems the logical thing) in order to close in or back off.

So... a guy with a hammer (reach 1) charges a guy with a crowbar (r2). The defender holds him at a point where his hammer isn't best used (distance 2). At this distance, the hammer guy has -1ws and the crowbar guy has no bonuses. The hammer guy can forfeit a hit in order to reduce the distance to 1, reversing the ws penalty.

That seems to work okay, and would probably really expand the possibilities for designing hth weapons. It could obviously do with some tweaking (forfeiting a hit for what's effectively a +1ws is a no-brainer under the Necro system; they're the same thing), but I'm sure something could be done with it.

Personally, in a game centred around hth in which guns are fairly special, I think the Necro system would be out of place. It's much more focussed on getting the combat over with and declaring a winner. The Mordheim system is definitely better; it makes long, drawn-out combats possible, whereas the Necro system would leave the game focused on something which is just a one-turn 'run-stab-go' affair. Plus the Mordheim system allows for interesting upsets and more possibilities for weapon design. I'm all for combat being slowed down a lot, and movement within combat represented (the reach thing, circling, all that jazz).


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