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Britain in the not so distant future

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 3:53 pm 
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Or we could do what you're really suggesting, and simplify the =][= rules. :wink:


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 3:56 pm 
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Heh. I did think about the similarity, but I just don't think the Necro rules would make for a very good game. Beter to have simplified Inquisitor rules than to have a game that hinges on a quick and anticlimactic combat phase.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 4:13 pm 
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well, there are going to be a fair number of guns knocking around, for one simple reason: Most of the suitable models i've seen have guns, some with modern/sci fi assualt weaponry, some with WW1 era rifles and pistols. but most of them have a firearm of one type or another.

If we can find a straight-forward middle ground between =][= and Necro, that would be my personal option. But then, i just dislike the WHFB HTH system.


Last edited by shiver85 on Tue Feb 06, 2007 4:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 4:18 pm 
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The problem is that WS in Mordheim is 3 kinds of useless. Me being WS 6 really doesn't benefit me against a standard W3 trooper if he charges me. He still needs a 4+ to hit and potentially kill me.

In necro charging a higher WS guy is very dangerous.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 4:31 pm 
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and that's part of why i'm prejudiced....

Anyway, firearm stats, thoughts people?
Range: Bsx? (1-10) So a if a fighter with Bs 4 with a x2 weapon (like mebbe a sawnoff?) has a range of 8", but give them an x10 weapon (like a high power sniper rifle) has a range of 40". Short range is half the distance.
Range Mods: +/- upto 3?
Strength: make average toughness say 3, and average weapon strength 5. Like i said, shooting should hurt.
Dam: so few weapons will have multiple dam shots (like the molotov?) this can probably just go in "special"
Pen: instead of a save mod, armour penetrating shots decrease the targets toughness.
Ammo roll: average about 6+ (on a D10)
Shots:per turn like in =][=. 1 for weapons with a low rate of fire (eg. revolvers), 2 for semi automatics, 3 for full auto weapons. weapons with a really low rate of fire (eg muskets) are move or fire
Special: Burning, multiple damage, stun, stuff like that


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 08, 2007 6:34 am 
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So: shooting ovierview, what do people reckon?

Declare shots- fighters with multiple shots (gunfighter skill, automatic weapons) declare all their shots, but if against multiple targets, the targets have to be within a given distance (2/3"?) as with sus. fire in necromunda.
Check range- as mentioned; ranges will vary according to the Bs of the shooter. if a target is out of range you have to make a "to hit" roll anyway for ammo purposes
To hit roll- the shooter has to roll under their Bs to hit (the inverse system in most GW games has always seemed a little odd IMO). This is where i hit a quandry: D10 or D6?

D10 would mean Bs would have to be higher (5 would be average), however this means ranges mould have to be in cm, or they'd all become very long. Furthermore, are ammo rolls incurred by a 1 (in which case they'd be rarer, and so should be harder to pass on average) or 1+2 (more common, easier to pass)? And do we make a 10 an auto-miss, or 9+10? (potentially hitting a friendly should be 10 IMO)
D6- As in Necromunda, would keep ranges down, keep things simpler, but be less detailed in terms of stats. and would mean you'd have a mix of D10 and D6 rolls, which might make things more complex.

Pinning- maybe make it like =][=, so you have to take a Ld test when you're shot at, if you fail you fall and become pinned?
Wounding- works pretty much as necromunda, but with a greater range of S and T
Result- D6 or D10? D6 as necromunda, D10 greater variety of effects eg. 1 is FW with no negative effects, 2-3 FW with -1 WS/BS (again FW damage might have to be greater if we make shooting a D10 affair). and of course Break tests for models within a given distance of a downed friendly.

Anyway, this system isn't just for BitnsDF (really needs a catchier title), using the weapon creation table you could make everything from Bows and Hackbutts to laser rifles and clockwork diamond pistols. its about creating a flexible and advanced skirmish system, more detailed and realistic then Necro, but not uber detailed like =][=
I'll have a think about HTH after i've had a good look at the Mordheim and =][= systems


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 08, 2007 6:53 am 
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The d10 system is all good IMHO and should be used as much as possible.

I think ammo rolls should be dealt with differently than in necro, always hitting when you ran out of ammo bothered me. Also any thoughts on using metric measurments rather than imperial, greater detail again but the players would have to learn a new system ofcourse.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 08, 2007 8:41 am 
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It seems like this thread has moved away from Necromunda quite a bit.
Which is fine, but it probably best belongs in the Game Design & Theory section now. :)


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2007 6:32 am 
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thank you truckler

anyway, simplified =][= HTH system overview

Charging- A model may elect to charge an enemy. you don't have to charge the closest enemy, but you can't charge a further model if you pass within 2" of a nearer enemy. charging models may move up to twice their movement rate.

Order of attacks- a model who charges (or otherwise initiates a combat, ie followup move) strikes first, the charged model strikes second. in subsequent turns, the model with the highest I strikes first. in the result of a tie, roll a die to determine who goes first.

Making a CC attack- to make an attack you must roll under your Ws on a D10. a 10 is a miss irrespective of modifiers the following modifiers apply to your chance of hitting:
+2(?) charged
+1 higher ground
+/-? difference in weapon reach (eg, you have a reach 1 weapon and your opponent has a reach 3, you suffer a -2 modifier)
-1 second weapon (see below)

Multiple attacks/ two weapons- models may make a number of attacks up to their A stat. a fighter with a weapon in both hands may attempt to hit with their second weapon, but suffers a -1 to hit with it (eg a model with a sword and a knife attacks with the sword at full WS, and suffers a -1 with the knife)

Block/parry- a model may attempt to block or parry a hit by rolling under their WS on a D10. a 10 is a miss, irrespective of modifiers. every subsequent hit halves their WS, rounding up (ie, the first parry is at full Ws, the second at 1/2 Ws, the third at 1/4 etc). the following modifiers apply to parrying
+1 higher ground
+/-? difference in weapon reach
-? parry penalty (see weapon stat overview). if a model has 2 CC weapons, use the lower penalty.
+1 CC weapon in both hands

Wounding- as shooting
Result- if a model is taken down in HTH, the winner may sacrifice their followup move to take them OoA.
Followup move- a model who takes an enemy down or out in HTH may make a move upto half their M stat. this may be used to engage a new opponent in HTH, which is worked out in the next turn
Pistols in HTH- pistols or comparitvely sized ranged weapons may be used to make a hit in HTH and count as reach 3, however they cannot be used to parry.

Close Combat weapon stat overview
Reach: 0-4.
reach 0 are objects such as yawara sticks, bricks, bottles, ash trays or even a clenched fist.
reach 1 are short weapons such as claw-hammers, knives, coshes
reach 2 are medium size weapons, machetes, crowbars
reach 3 are swords, baseball/ cricket bats and the like
reach 4 is spears, pool cues (oh i do mean it :P ) long arms with fixed bayonets.
Strength: As user, sometimes with a modifier. rarely a fixed value (chainsaws)
Parry Penalty: - upto 4(?). eg sabres -1, ashtray -4
Special: eg requires two hands, flimsy (eg the ash tray is destroyed by a powerful hit), unwieldy (a 9+10 a misses), stun etc.

I've left out multiple combats because i've not really thought them throught yet. and re: reach, as most people will have some at least medium sized weapon, this should stop reach mods dominating the game. I've also left move or fire pistols out atm. you could use them in the first round of combat, but then what do they count as?

anyway, what do people think?


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2007 12:06 pm 
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Very good i think it will work well but one question, why does the charger strike first? it happens alot in GW games and i cant work out why. Yes there should be a bonus to charging but i think it should increase your strength (representing your momentum) but i wouldn't have thought a seasoned fighter (or infact anyone who knows how to fight) would let their opponent strike first. Could somone enlighten me as to why?


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 10, 2007 1:06 am 
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Ideas sound decent so far. Though, I'm not sure how many good rules there are that can be borrowed from Inquisitor...
Personally, I prefer D12s. Exactly twice the range of results as a D6.

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Pinning- maybe make it like =][=, so you have to take a Ld test when you're shot at, if you fail you fall and become pinned?

'Pinning' whereby you get shot at, fall over and do nothing, is silly. I think testing to see if you get scared (come to your senses...) and run for cover is much better. You could have a separate test to see if a model that is hit is knocked over, in which case, they can crawl away if required, or they have to stand up before they can make a run for it.

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Very good i think it will work well but one question, why does the charger strike first? it happens alot in GW games and i cant work out why.

I agree. I dislike automatic charge bonuses, especially in games where close combat is prevalent. Chances are, the guy you are charging with your pointed stick, was charging at you with his pointed stick anyway. Why should you get a charge bonus just because you make contact in your turn?
I think charge bonuses should be more circumstanial. Being granted mainly when attacking models that are unprepared or distracted.

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Making a CC attack- to make an attack you must roll under your Ws on a D10. a 10 is a miss irrespective of modifiers the following modifiers apply to your chance of hitting:

I think that is a bad rule.
Two skilled combatants will hit eachother all the time, difference in skill doesn't count for much of anything. An unskilled fighter will hit a skilled fighter just as often as he hits another unskilled fighter.

Quote:
Block/parry- a model may attempt to block or parry a hit by rolling under their WS on a D10. a 10 is a miss, irrespective of modifiers. every subsequent hit halves their WS, rounding up (ie, the first parry is at full Ws, the second at 1/2 Ws, the third at 1/4 etc). the following modifiers apply to parrying

Bad rule for much the same reasons as above.

Apart from the change to D10, I don't know why you would want to switch to an inferior, convoluted 'roll to hit with attacks' system, unless you also change it so each person only ever gets 1 attack per turn.

Quote:
a fighter with a weapon in both hands may attempt to hit with their second weapon, but suffers a -1 to hit with it (eg a model with a sword and a knife attacks with the sword at full WS, and suffers a -1 with the knife)

I think it would be better if there was a -1 for the primary weapon and -2 for the secondary. Trying to use two weapons at once really isn't that good an idea most of the time. You could have particular weapons or skills that reduce the modifier to -0 and -1 for the secondary. But without the increased modifiers and rolling to hit on a D10, using a pair of weapons would be unrealistically useful, and correspondingly quite popular.

Quote:
Pistols in HTH- pistols or comparitvely sized ranged weapons may be used to make a hit in HTH and count as reach 3, however they cannot be used to parry.

Realistically, pistols should probably be Reach 4 or 5, and/or give an initiative bonus.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 10, 2007 10:53 am 
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Pistols should be reach 4 (originally reach was 0-3, pistols got missed in the rewrite). an I bonus makes sense too.

2 weapons- still coming at this for a necro player PoV.

Hit/parry- i wasn't too keen on this way of doing it myself, i'd rather have something where both players roll at the same time, like in necromunda, but better detailed. any suggestions?
however bear in mind Ws9 fighters are unlikely to be as common as Ws6 is in necromunda. and this system is simple to use.

chargers strike first in both WHFB and =}{=, it makes more sense IMO than them striking second. but as mentioned, i'd rather have a system where both players roll simultaneously.

RobbieBuckshotLaFunk wrote:
I think testing to see if you get scared (come to your senses...) and run for cover is much better. You could have a separate test to see if a model that is hit is knocked over, in which case, they can crawl away if required, or they have to stand up before they can make a run for it
sounds good to me, any suggestions for a rule?

and once we get the bones of this system down, it'd be a piece of pi$$ rejigging them for D12.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 10, 2007 11:25 am 
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Quote:
it makes more sense IMO than them striking second
But erm if you charge a guy with a spear you have a very good chance of being stuck like a pig because of the range of his weapon, and besides even if he dosent out range you with a weapon then he will probably be barreling towards you as you charge him. IMHO weapon length and initiative should dictate who strikes when and charging should give a bonus to strength (because of the added momentum).


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 10, 2007 2:36 pm 
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if charging didn't give a bonus, people wouldn't do it as often. if charged models got a bonus, like striking first, no one would charge at all, they'd just try and tempt other models to charge them. and the whole thing would grind to a dissapointing halt.

thats why chargers get to strike first in a number of games. simple as that. its less to do with reslism as making the game mechanics actually work. but we can afford to have a more complex soluttion to that problem here...


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2007 12:00 am 
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I like Rift’s ideas.

You could just use the Necromunda close combat system with some minor changes. Sticking with D6s to determine your combat score.
I personally could not ever bring myself to play any system where close combat is resolved by one side rolling to hit with multiple attacks before the other side gets a chance to do anything. Such as Warhammer Fantasy and the current version of 40K.
Whoever has the higher initiative strikes first in the current version of 40K, the charger gets an extra attack.

I really, really, dislike the idea that two fighters/units whose sole purpose is to fight in close combat, are charging towards each other, both with the intention of engaging the other in close combat, but whoever happens to make contact in their turn gets a charge bonus.
Secondly, if you're charging someone with automatic weapons, or even just bows, that they fire at you as you close, I think any sort of charge bonus would be pretty much negated by getting shot.

Using a turn system of alternate unit activation, I'd probably give a charge bonus when attacking models/units that have already been activated that turn. Unless the unit spent its activation attacking the charging unit.

I don't think giving an advantage to equipment and removing the advantage of a charge bonus will necessarily result in a static or otherwise uninteresting game. I think it would probably result in a much more tactical game. Rather than everyone just piling into the middle of the board with the hope of getting to charge first, you'd have to use the right tool for the right job.
Attack your enemy's swordsmen with your spearmen, attack your enemy's archers with your swordsmen, and shoot your enemy's spearmen with your archers.

A close combat system I’d consider for a D10 or D12, is one where everyone gets just 1 attack per turn, and your default ‘to-hit’ roll is 5 or less, or whatever, modified by the difference between the attacker’s weapon skill and the defender’s initiative.
So assuming a default required to-hit roll of 5 or less on a D10, an attacker with weapon skill 5 vs. a defender with initiative 4, results in a required to-hit roll of 6 or les on a D10.
I prefer a system where hitting is determined by attacker’s close combat ability vs. defender’s agility, since it allows you to have characters/creatures that are good at hitting but bad at avoiding being hit, or good at avoiding being hit, but no good at hitting their opponent.

As for an 'acting sensibly' rule to replace 'pinning' when shot, it would be the standard leadership test with circumstantial modifiers.
So, shot at but not hit, test with a +2 modifier.
Shot at multiple times but not hit, test with +1 modifier.
Hit but not wounded, test with no modifier.
Hit multiple times but not wounded, test with -1 modifier.
Hit and wounded but not downed, test with -2 or -3.

Then I'd have a number of reactions depending on the margin of failure on the leadership test.
Fail by 1, cannot take any actions that bring the model closer to enemies.
Fail by 2, must spend at least half its turn moving away from enemies and/or towards cover. So they could run if they wanted, or move and shoot or shoot and move, but not rapid fire.
Fail by 3, as per fail by 2, but -1 to weapon skill, ballistic skill and initiative until they regroup/rally.
Fail by 4 or 5, must move away from enemies and/or towards cover as fast as possible in subsequent activations, and has negative modifiers to statistics until it regroups.
Fail by 6+, act as per fail by 4 or 5, but may not test to regroup/rally unless there are no detected enemies within 16" instead of 8".

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