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WarpStrike 40k Skirmish Campaign rules! Updated 2016-06-21

 Post subject: WarpStrike 40k Skirmish Campaign rules! Updated 2016-06-21
PostPosted: Sat Dec 13, 2008 9:20 am 
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Latest rules update: 21 June 2016. Dropbox

Rules for Necrons as an alternative to Tyranids have been added! Plus a few rules changes.

+++ Alternate Download location for Warpstrike Rules +++
Latest Warpstrike Rules Alt Download

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Warpstrike Roster

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This time I have a new logo to go along with the new name, thanks to Jose Veiga (Cabalier) of http://creacionescuriosas.com. I've also updated the Warband Roster as well.

What's WarpStrike about?
Adoni-Zedek wrote:
In the year 994.7M41, a seeding swarm from Hive Fleet Kraken emerged from the Warp over the hive world of Gazalem III, deep in the Eastern Fringe of the galaxy, and began to engage the defense fleet. After a two-week battle, the hive ships had overwhelmed the fleet and orbital defenses, and began a seed-pod assault of the planet’s surface. However, the tremendous currents and eddies in the warp generated by the hive fleet’s passage had opened a temporary vortex in the Gazalem system’s asteroid belt, bathing a large asteroid in warp energy, and altered its trajectory, sending the 1500-ton rock hurtling toward the third planet. Just after the tyranids’ surface assault commenced, a combined fleet of Imperial Navy, Space Marines, and Ecclesiarchy ships arrived to engage the tyranid fleet. As the first salvos were fired, the asteroid arrived, punching through the largest tyranid ship, and then impacting on the surface of the planet below. The warp energies that sent the asteroid hurtling through space had also imbued the material with warp energy, transforming it into warpstone. As this psychicly-charged asteroid ripped through the controlling ship of the tyranid fleet, it severed the link to the hive mind, throwing the tyranid ships (and the tyranid forces already on the ground) into confusion. The tyranid fleet suddenly fractured, falling into instinctive behaviors, with some of the ships immediately launching suicidal attacks at the imperial forces, and others fleeing, to turn and launch hit-and-run attacks as they could. It took the combined imperial fleets nearly a week to corner and eradicate the last remnants of the tyranid swarm.

Just as the fleets were regrouping, a small chaos fleet emerged from the warp and launched a drop-pod assault on Gazalem III. The chaos ships then executed a quick raid on the still disorganized Imperial ships, and fell back, drawing the Imperial fleet into an extended game of cat and mouse across the entire Gazalem system. The imperial forces landed their own troops on the surface, discovering that the meteorite had impacted the planet’s largest Spire, and fragmented into hundreds of thousands of small shards, which it appeared the chaos forces were collecting. There were still many tyranid creatures on the planet, though with the destruction of the hive fleet they had broken into a collection of individuals, with a few of the larger creatures still managing to maintain control over very small swarms. The imperial landing teams were tasked with collecting as much of the precious warpstone as possible, and procuring the bodies of tyranid creatures for study.

Within a week of the appearance of the Chaos fleet, ‘ships’ bearing the banner of the Notorious Ork Warboss Mogar ThroatSplitter were sighted in the system, and soon there were orks in the ruins of the hive city as well, while the space around the star was plunged into a confusion of small skirmishes being fought between the ships of three different factions. A few Tau ships were soon spotted in the system as well, and shortly thereafter, teams of Fire Warriors were encountered on the planet, apparently also interested in collecting the warpstone. Small bands of Eldar warriors have been reported in the ruins, and it’s rumored that their Dark Brethren are present as well, fueling speculation that an entrance to the webway exists somewhere on Gazalem III.

Initial analysis of warpstone samples indicates a high potential for use in warp drives, possibly increasing speeds of travel by up to 1/3 over current maximums. The limited supply of Warpstone (under 90 tons total) however, makes it unlikely this improvement will see widespread implementation. Indications are also good for use in special ammunition types for use against tyranid synapse creatures, as evidenced by the complete disruption of synapse connections when the asteroid struck the controlling ship in the tyranid fleet. Further testing and samples of tyranid organisms will be required for the development of such ammunition. All teams are instructed to procure as much warpstone as possible, as well as procuring tyranid organisms for experimentation and study.


Thanks!

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Warpstrike: 40k Skirmish Campaign rules (Necromunda for 40k)-Updated 2016-06-21


Last edited by Adoni-Zedek on Mon Jun 27, 2016 1:32 pm, edited 33 times in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 13, 2008 11:20 pm 
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I went over the combat rules pretty fast, since I assume they are basically similar to 2nd/Necro. I did have some thoughts about the armies:


The Space Marines warband list uses Panthers terminology in many places.

I'd like to see Servitors included in the Space Marine list. What's a Techmarine without his lobotomized helpers?

Your Tau list has no Kroot!

Imperial Guard
Rationale: Who would the Imperium really send on this sort of mission? If it were on a distant alien world, sure, a fast-responding strike force of Space Marines and/or the Inquision would be sent. However this is an Imperial Hive world which undoubtedly includes an Imperial garrison; the Imperial Guard are already present and in force. Why would they be left out of the conflict?
Army Balance: How do you avoid making them a swarm of cannon fodder? Making an Imperial Guard Kill Team presents a similar problem. You have a fair number of points to spend but you are not allowed to field a swarm (Kill Teams are penalized for exceeding 12 models). You end up including very few ordinary grunts and a lot more of the expensive veterans, officers and specialists.

If regular Guardsmen are still just too pathetic, you can explain that the Gazalemite Guard regiments are Grenadiers (basic troops equivalent to Storm Troopers).
Since Terminators and Broadsides are allowed in the game, you might also allow the Imperial Guard to have a Sentinel.
Ultimately if you are going to contrive reasons for every other army in the 40K universe to be present, it doesn't make any sense to leave anyone's chosen army out!

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 14, 2008 7:23 am 
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Thanks for the comments, Venator! The close combat is quite similar, except that parries are limited to a skill, and other equipment (more than just swords) can give you a Deflect instead (I think that was originally one of Goobafish's ideas)

For the Kroot, I thought that the Tau might consider them too mercenary, and not quite loyal enough to the greater good to be trusted with such an important mission. And the Vespid provide too much mobility, considering they already have access to stealth suits and a crisis suit.

Thanks for your ideas on the Imperial Guard. I really wanted to include them, but I couldn't see how. I'll have to look at including a Sentinel. Though I'm not sure I want move-and-fire assault cannons running around (Terminators can't take any heavy weapons, not even heavy flamers). With the right skill, most armies can move and shoot heavy weapons, however, so maybe if I just limit the armament. Sentinels have a low armor value, plus an exposed pilot, and they can't keep a low profile. I'll have to throw something together.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 17, 2008 3:55 pm 
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Just a note: The Eldar Warlock, Bloodsinger, and Fire dragons do not in fact get the skills Rapid Fire and True Grit. That change will be posted in my next version, which will hopefully include Imperial Guard forces as the Gazalem Planetary Defense Force. Just trying to put together some decent costs for various troops. If you see anything you think is way under- or over-priced, please let me know.

Thanks!

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 Post subject: Re: 40k Skirmish Campaign rules open for beta testing!
PostPosted: Thu Dec 25, 2008 7:49 pm 
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Well, I've updated the rules a bit, and added the Imperial Guard as the Gazalem III PDF. I've thrown in some prices, and even a Sentinel, but I'm sure it still needs tons of adjustment. Also, I'm not sure how include vehicles and cavalry in the campaign system. What happens when you get shot off your mount? How much does it cost to fix your Sentinel when it gets shot up? How do you determine if it can even be repaired? I'm sure Ash Wastes will have some guidance on the subject, but I don't have the .pdf download anymore. And GW...well...<sigh>. So any ideas on improving it, fixing balance issues, and tracking down typos is welcome.

Here's the link: http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/40k2nd/files/Mord-40k/. (again, though, you need a Yahoo or Flickr! account to access this. Or PM me with your email and I'll send it direct)

Thanks!

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Warpstrike: 40k Skirmish Campaign rules (Necromunda for 40k)-Updated 2016-06-21


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 21, 2009 5:19 pm 
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Okay, a fairly big update. I’ve added Blood Angels and Dark Angels, and campaign rules for vehicles (thanks, Abitrator General!). I’ve adjusted the Harlequins (they were way under-experienced for their starting stat-line, and I toned down the Death Jester), and fixed a bunch more minor errors. Oh, and I toned down Shaken. It no longer affects rout (bottle) checks, which made it better than being immune to psychology!

I’m relatively satisfied with the rules as I have them (though if you have any suggestions for improving them, I’d certainly like to know! For instance, a nice way of having scouts progress to full-fledged marines without losing their Infiltration ability, and still adding in costs for Shaken, without ending up with an entire warband of infiltrating marines. What happens to a Blood Angels scout that succumbs to the Black rage? Does he get to wear Power Armor? In the extremely unlike event that he recovers, does he get to keep his power armor? Or does he go back to scout armor?) I’m really more concerned with Pricing and maintaining balance. So if you see anything that looks way under- or over-priced, please let me know.

I play marines and eldar, so there may be a slight bias towards those races, as far as attention paid to them, and possibly to balance. If there is, I apologize. If you find imbalances with any warband, please discuss them with me, and I will do what I can to eliminate them. I want this to be fun and challenging, regardless of which warband you play.

Here's the link:
http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/40k ... /Mord-40k/

maybe McCragge will host a copy here on the Fringe if we ask him nicely.

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Panthers Chapter Imperial Space Marines
Warpstrike: 40k Skirmish Campaign rules (Necromunda for 40k)-Updated 2016-06-21


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2009 7:16 am 
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Howdy! I'm new to this forum, but I'm a fan of Mordheim and all skirmishes from the 'last of the Old Days'. I'm the author of The Mordheimer's Information Centre, a site still dedicated to help Mordheim players everywhere. I'm glad to be here. I was directed here by a great friend, and Mordheim Rules-Mod (from the SG Forums) DaBank. I got your rules, and I was glad to see your work. As a 40k player myself, is good to know that there are people out there who think like some of us do... there is a 40k Skirmish void. Your effort in making a Mordheim-type transition to 40k is a good one.

This said, PLEASE DO NOT BE DISCOURAGED!

Late August 2008, DaBank and I started to work on a 40k Skirmish (almost by accident!) On our research we found World In Arms (WiA), which basically does what you want to do with Mord-40k-heim. They have taken Mordheim Game Rules and adapted few things to fit 40k. Basically (and PLEASE do not feel offended) it is Mordheim-in-Space. I believe that WiA, and now Mord-40k-heim, are great attempts to fill the void that always have existed in 40k on the skirmish realm. Yes, I know about 4th Edition Kill-Team... but everyone who has played Mordheim KNOWS that Kill-Team is a pathetic attempt to a skirmish... a real shame. I could write for pages on the reasons why, but that does not belongs here.

Anyhow, the skirmish game that DaBank and I (in company of over 8 play-testers in several countries) are working on is a fan-based (never to be commercially sold nor ever accept donations) is one that goes beyond the Mordheim-in-Space feeling. Not that there is anything wrong with that; we wanted something that goes beyond that. More than Mordheim, Necromunda, Gorkamorka, Space Hulk, Warhammer Quest, etc. is also a natural extension of all of them. Thus, Death Squads was born.

DaBank's over nine years of experience with skirmish games (the man is a living-encyclopedia-of-useless-knowledge when it comes to Mordheim!) and my ever present Monkish-obsession have managed to create a very solid set of rules. We learned (specially me) the hard way, that for a 40k skirmish to work the way that we want, we had to think outside the box. For us, the design could not become 'Mordheim in Space' because some rules do not apply. It could not be '40k with few models' because 40k is designed for larger amount of models... the same reason why Kill Team did not worked! Death Squads can be set in any situation, and its nature allows for any setting Campaign. You are not limited to pick up Wyrdstone.

Certain units and items can not translate 'as is' to 40k. A good example is the Power Fist. In your game it has stats of "Cost 85, Rare 9, S8, Damage 1, Save Mod -5, Armor Penetration d6+d20+8"... wow! To me, this was VERY close to my idea of a Power Fist... until I saw the light. Take ANYTHING in Mordheim, give it S8 and you take the game so off-balance it is no longer fun. Think of the experimental Ogre Warband, and you know what I mean. The way you have it, this weapon is a certain model killer. We had a dilemma... Our Power Fist became "Cost 75, Rare 10, S+1, D3 attacks, AP3, Initiative 1, Leader Only" Basically we increase the mathematical chances of hitting the victim.. not literally D3 punches, but mathematical representations of hitting and thus more wounds that simulate more critical damage. It also leaves a chance for less hits... allowing some random fun. We also limit the availability. This weapon still is a model killer, but it does not feels like certain death. You should see how we resolved the Sniper Rifle 'Boom-You-Are-Dead' problem... along with the 'Dwarven Syndrome' (Mordheim Dwarved with crossbows on a roof-top) issues. DaBank is a master when it comes to those things!

We changed little things, reducing dice rolls, that while it does not change the over-all 'Mordheim-like' feel of the game it does change how it plays. For example, changed when models must declare charge (and where). Seems stupid... but now support fire does actually work and the assaultee may find himself in the open (as they target now is OOA!) and vulnerable to enemy fire. Trust me... it changes the strategy! We changed the way that Climbing Down a building works... same as Mordheim, but the damages is calculated from the TOP of the building is any roll is failed. Simple, yet brutal. It does not stops ME from having my Ork Boyz jump like rabbits!

The Death Squads manual is currently over 170 pages long, as it includes everything you need to play... no need for the Mordheim rules... photos, fluff (and lots of it!) and more. WiA is ~80 pages, and yours is ~100 PLUS all the Mordheim books. At the moment we have completed the Squads for IG and Orks. We are working on Imperial Renegades and some other Squads. All Squads will be balanced against each other... like the original Warbands in Mordheim are balanced against each other. While this slows down the process, it makes the game more fun. We will include many other rules soon and are planning to release when we have several Squads done and tested.

As Mord-40k-heim stands, there is no chance anyone can fairly stand an experienced, well equipped IG Leader versus a Rookie naked Space Marine Leader and win. This is a big no-no in design... a VERY hard one to overcome. Anyone can give me any reasoning why the Space Marine Leader must have WS 5, BS 5, S 4 and T4 (that cost only 90 credits!) but it will not take away from the fun-factor of the game. This may work for your adaptation... but not for ours. Honestly, I do not know why anyone would play anything else (or play IG for that matter) For us, it is a complete design out-of-the-box... we continue to struggle with it. Food for thought... if everyone plays Space Marines, why not reduce all stats (of every unit) by 1 point? Is equally fair, but changes the mathematics and statistics... and it allows room to grow. This is the kind of issues we are tackling.

All in all, if any Mordheim player wants to play Mordheim using 40k models (plus story and fluff), WiA and Mord-40k-heim are GREAT resources.

If you are curious, Adoni-Zedek, please PM me. I do NOT want to discourage you from your project. I admire your dedication to work on this... I understand how hard it is! In the same page, if you envision something a little more in depth... we could chat.

Again, thanks for your awesome work... and consider our invitation to join our Death Squads play-testers. :D

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2009 5:20 pm 
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Mordheimer,

Thanks for giving my rules a look! I appreciate your feedback. However, I'm afraid we're coming at this from different worlds. My version is a lot closer to Necromunda in terms of game mechanics, which means 2nd Edition 40k. It sounds like Death Squads is coming from one of the later versions of 40k (noted from the presence of an AP rating in your powerfist profile), and Mordheim. While my income model is based on Mordheim's, most of the core rules are from Necromunda and 2nd Edition 40k (which is intended for much smaller battles than the later incarnations.) Maybe I should change it to Necro-40k-munda? :P (actually, I'm really not fond of either name. Too bad Death Squads is taken!)

(Just a note, an experienced Imperial Guard Lt. will likely be WS6, and should be able to at least hold his own against a brand new Veteran Marine Sgt who starts at WS5. Stats also come from 2nd Edition 40k, rather than any of the newer versions. And I recently read in a post on this site of a brand new juve (WS2, 1 Attack) taking out and killing an experienced fanatic with 3 attacks and a WS of 5 in close combat. Not something I'd want to count on, but it is doable.)

Also, if you've got the latest version, there's no need for the Mordhiem rulebook, as I've completely detailed all the scenarios I borrowed from it.

As this is still a Beta release, playtesting is still underway. Pricing is still subject to change. As I mentioned in my last post, all of the warbands are meant to be competitive.

How have you changed the charging rules? That sounds interesting? you mentioned something about changing when you declare charges?

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Warpstrike: 40k Skirmish Campaign rules (Necromunda for 40k)-Updated 2016-06-21


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2009 9:53 pm 
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Adoni-Zedek wrote:
For the Kroot, I thought that the Tau might consider them too mercenary, and not quite loyal enough to the greater good to be trusted with such an important mission.
Short answer: The Tau trust the Kroot and do team up with them even on missions of critical importance to the empire. To quote the Tau Empire book:
"Kroot warriors have a strict code of honour..."
"The Kroot are honoured for their martial prowess and are rewarded for their efforts, as befits loyal citizens of the Tau empire."
Long answer: The difference between the Kroot and Vespid is that the Kroot are independent and self-sufficient allies and the Vespid are flunkies who are completely dependent on the Tau for their whole civilization.
Most of the races in the Tau empire were rather primitive until the Tau showed up and offered them the wonders of warp travel and indoor plumbing. These races pretty-much owe the Tau everything, and in many cases have modeled their civilizations on The Greater Good. The Kroot, on the other hand, were already a space-faring race with hive cities and multiple colony world before they met the Tau. Kroot and Tau forces were allies in battle before the Kroot agreed to join the empire, and their relationship has always been one of allies cooperating for mutual gain, not master and slave. The Tau rely on the Kroot for things as varied as their close combat skill and their warp technology (Kroot have true warp travel that is far superior to Tau "partial transition" engines and can often reach a war zone before the Tau fleet.) Anyway, Kroot do have their own goals and motivations, but that doesn't mean they're untrustworthy.

Adoni-Zedek wrote:
And the Vespid provide too much mobility, considering they already have access to stealth suits and a crisis suit.
Vespid are rather expensive and fragile in 40K, and their capabilities are by no means stellar. I think I'd rather have stealth suits or gun drones for the same job myself. So, you might just try giving them a high enough price to offset their advantages and see how they work.

Adoni-Zedek wrote:
Thanks for your ideas on the Imperial Guard. I really wanted to include them, but I couldn't see how. I'll have to look at including a Sentinel.
I'm glad to see the Guard are now included in the army list. Hopefully the addition of vehicle rules will offer a way to make Sentinels a reality.

Adoni-Zedek wrote:
What happens to a Blood Angels scout that succumbs to the Black rage? Does he get to wear Power Armor? In the extremely unlike event that he recovers, does he get to keep his power armor? Or does he go back to scout armor?) I’m really more concerned with Pricing and maintaining balance. So if you see anything that looks way under- or over-priced, please let me know.
My own take on the fluff is that the black rage is passed on through the chapter's tainted geneseed and takes some time to manifest. The majority of Blood Angels die in battle before giving in to it becomes an issue. I would say that the odds of a scout who doesn't even have all of his implants suffering from it should be very low. Probably low enough to ignore altogether and avoid the issue!
Yes, 40K treats scouts just like full Marines in this regard, but there's only so much detail you can squeeze into a 1d6 roll. There are cheese gamers who take lots of Scout Squads in hopes of gaining cheap Death Company members, but these should not be the basis for the fluff or game mechanics of your skirmish system. If the squad members can gain experience and become full marines, they will have their chance to suffer the black rage.

Mordheimer wrote:
The Death Squads manual is currently over 170 pages long, as it includes everything you need to play... no need for the Mordheim rules... photos, fluff (and lots of it!) and more.
On days when I feel inspired to work on skirmish rules, my project is Kill Team. Yes, Kill Team has serious flaws, but the rules are simple and I think they can be greatly improved with a bit of tinkering. It may not be of any use for Adoni-Zedek's project or yours, but I plan to post some of my house rules here eventually. The more skirmish ideas, the merrier.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 30, 2009 7:41 am 
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Adoni-Zedek wrote:
Thanks for giving my rules a look! I appreciate your feedback.
You are welcome!


Adoni-Zedek wrote:
MHowever, I'm afraid we're coming at this from different worlds. My version is a lot closer to Necromunda in terms of game mechanics, which means 2nd Edition 40k. It sounds like Death Squads is coming from one of the later versions of 40k (noted from the presence of an AP rating in your powerfist profile), and Mordheim.
Partially correct. I think we are starting from the same point, taking different approaches. That is OK! Really... it is just a different general vision. We are both into creating a skirmish for 40k. You are 100% indicating that your team prefers the 40k 2nd Edition approach, while we base many items on 5th Edition. There is a reason why we took 5th Edition as a base... 2nd Edition was a 'entrench-wait-&-shoot' game. If you take 5th Edition 40k and add Overwatch, the playability of the game changes considerably. While fun (especially for IG) this slows down the game to a crawl. Imagine adding Overwatch to a 'small' Apocalypse game. Hehehehe... While I feel more comfortable in 4th Edition (and DaBank does not play 40k... the main reason why he can REALLY balance things out), we would like players new to the game to be able to use it.

We believe that Mordheim is a superb skirmish... few things may be improved, but being a 95% Awesome is superb! We decided to use this as a spring board. DaBank brought elements from many other skirmish games (like Necromunda, Gorkamorka, Space Hulk - yes, we know it IS a board game) and fuse many of its elements. A Mordheim player would see Death Squads and know 85% of the rules... and when confronting the little subtle changes, he would appreciate them. There are certain elements of Necromunda that we like... others that we don't. For example, we love the idea of ammo (GW include it now in 5th Ed Space Marines!) but we hate the idea of jamming. While it is 'realistic' it involves more dice rolling and slows down the game. It is an issue of 'realism' vs 'playability'. For us, the game MUST be fun.


Adoni-Zedek wrote:
While my income model is based on Mordheim's, most of the core rules are from Necromunda and 2nd Edition 40k (which is intended for much smaller battles than the later incarnations.)
I would disagree. 40k is about models... pick up a game on ANY edition, make the smallest force possible and you are ALWAYS left with a void. Not only that, any game up to 750 points do not work well. Same happens in the upper end. Any game beyond 2,500 points do not compute (thus the Apocalypse rules were born!) Now, Take a Mordheim game with average (or even minimal) warbands and players are left satisfied. By all this I don't mean (I wish I ALSO had a Dreadnought or a Rat-Ogre); I mean in a 40k minimal game (500 points) you still need some more models for simplistic strategies. It is fun, but is not something you will do for the rest of your gaming life. While the 2nd Edition approach is more conservative than 5th Edition, using few models is in no way or form balanced and fair. Remember, smaller battles in 40k means 25-40 models (which mathematically sucks for the game)... that is way pass the maximum of Mordheim. If you reduce the number of models, you NEED to change the approach to your math. It can not be the same as Mordheim while keeping 40k stats. :(


Adoni-Zedek wrote:
Maybe I should change it to Necro-40k-munda? :P actually, I'm really not fond of either name. Too bad Death Squads is taken!
LOL! I agree... change it.


Adoni-Zedek wrote:
Just a note, an experienced Imperial Guard Lt. will likely be WS6, and should be able to at least hold his own against a brand new Veteran Marine Sgt who starts at WS5. Stats also come from 2nd Edition 40k, rather than any of the newer versions. And I recently read in a post on this site of a brand new juve (WS2, 1 Attack) taking out and killing an experienced fanatic with 3 attacks and a WS of 5 in close combat. Not something I'd want to count on, but it is double.
We just got a Gretchin (stats 2 all around) take a Mutant OOA in hand to hand combat. We had to clean pee from the floor. Things can happen. You can not honestly expect to declare 'balance' an starting IG Lt and a starting SM Veteran Sgt.

Need another example? OK... take your Carnifex. Described as a 'Living Tank' in all Tyranid Codexii. Put 1 Space Marine vs 1 Carnifex (even the 'lowly' Scream Killer at a misley 150 points) in 40k and you KNOW who will win. Not a fair comparison? OK. Take any basic Space Marine vs the point equivalent in Gaunts (I believe it would be 2... maybe 3). Who would you bet on victory? They have the same point cost, yet the SM has the advantage? The point cost is supposed to be 'the great equalizer'! Yet, the lonely SM will most definitely win... that 3+ Save is a biatch! Take a SM Squad with 60 pts vs the same pts in Gaunts. Now we can see some sweating SM! They probably win... but it would be a nice fight. Do the same with 120 pts. My money is on the Gaunts. Do the same with 500 points and the Astartes will be nothing more than a speed bump.. I play Tyranid Hordes. I'm not into 'math-hammer', but this is a game reality. The reason is simple... the mathematical probabilities are too low for the Gaunts, yet Hordes relay on massive amount of dice. You may need 5's to-hit and 5's to-wound, but when you roll 150 dice, you don't really care. SM will have 50% of Saving the wounds... when you get 80 wounds that means 40 casualties.

My point is, you need to get out of the mentality of this-is-40k-with-few-models. If you want to take this to a personal level (like Mordheim) then certain units must be re-worked or sacrificed. For example, Tau. We have not officially started working on Tau, but certain things are 100% sure. We can't put a Crisis Suit as it is presented in 40k! It will NOT be fair. Every Squad can not be 'cooler and more powerful' than the last. They all most be balanced. If we decide to use a Crisis Suit, it would be a 'lesser' model... unfit for massive warfare, but designed for discrete missions. At the end, it may look like a Crisis Suit, but it will not be. We did this with the Killa-Kan... we even renamed it 'Trash-Kan'... the fluff behind it? Just like a Killa-Kan is a pathetic attempt to create a cheap Deff Dread, the Trash-Kan is an even more pathetic attempt to make a Killa-Kan. This thing is... pure trash (pun intended) for massive Ork Armies. But in a group of a Nob who recently left the tribe to form his own armies in hopes of making "Da' Biggest and Da' Baddest Waaagh!" ever, this thing is a gift! In game mechanics, a newbie Hero has a fighting chance against this thing (I would not bet on it), and a veteran Hero could (&#$@!) it.

Our Space Marine preliminary design takes a whole completely different approach. SM player could expect to have a hard to play group... that after gaining XP he could feel proud of... and after few games, he would like to retire because will become so powerful that they will be plain abusive (and they should be!)


Adoni-Zedek wrote:
Also, if you've got the latest version, there's no need for the Mordhiem rulebook, as I've completely detailed all the scenarios I borrowed from it.
There are things a little obscure. Maybe it was my fast reading.


Adoni-Zedek wrote:
As this is still a Beta release, play testing is still underway. Pricing is still subject to change. As I mentioned in my last post, all of the warbands are meant to be competitive.
We have the same issue with balancing prices and rarities. It either makes or brake the game. Nothing like having everyone in your Squad with 2 grenades to mess up everything! We had to run simulations to check the average earnings, and as such adjust prices to make everything accessible, yet requires a player sacrifice... will I get a grenade for everyone at 10 credits each OR should I upgrade few weapons or I get some armor?


Adoni-Zedek wrote:
How have you changed the charging rules? That sounds interesting? you mentioned something about changing when you declare charges?
Well, without going into much detail we started with a basic premise. Everything should be explained in one sentence. I don't mean rules, but intent. For example, the game... our objective is to make a skirmish game centered on the adventures of a small group of heroes and their support crew. This simple premise defines Death Squads as a whole. This means that Squads must have low numbers. We made the maximum cap 20 models for 'numerous' Squads... like IG. Others would have less. The premise also forces the design for the game to be about the heroes... not warmachines. This means that no tanks, planes, etc. Any unit that has a 'special' something, but be either a hero or support it. This defines the game to be like the Dirty Dozen movie... few heroes (like Charles Bronson's character) supported by henchmen (like the Hispanic guy that played guitar, that died in the parachute accident.)

We did the same on each Squad design. For example the Orks. This Squad is about a Nob whos fed up with his Warboss and decides to leave the tribe taking other (idiot) orks with him, with the promise of Waaagh! The Squad is to support the Nob (leader) climb up, become powerful and eventually become a Warboss. While the Nob is powerful (compared to his minions) he is nothing compared to a weak Ork Warboss. A newbie Nob could fight a newbie IG Captain and its about dice (luck!)

Rules changes? Besides stat changes (as I indicated before), there are little things. For example, we user Armor, Cover and Invulnerable Saves almost the same as 40k. This encourages people to buy armor (unlike Mordheim), navigate terrain (you do not need to declare cover save bonus as long as the model is within 1" of terrain that partially block LOS) and there is special gear that provide Inv Saves. Now, the game becomes a fair shooting game that MOVES toward close combat. Grenades were changed. Now they are useful! While not too powerful (the frags are S3, Blast Template) they can make some damage. They 'bounce' (scatter) if you miss, but then they become S2 (everyone sees the grenade roll in and take cover). The change on Declare Charges (now at the beginning of the Turn) makes use of the grenades a tricky proposition... what is the grenade bounces BACK? I have seen it happen! Climbing had minor adjustments like 'Careless Climbing' basically climbing at double base movement, increased chance to get wounded among others. Movement and terrain features were polished, and Psykers were reworked (much like WHFB) with difficult tests and Perils of The Warp (on failed doubles!)

Well, gotta run... :D

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 30, 2009 5:24 pm 
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Oops! I forgot to mention that in the update are also Imperial Guard, and they can take a single sentinel in their warband (max warband size of 20). They have to pick a different weapon for it though: no assault cannons allowed! Currently the only other vehicle allowed is the Hellion Skyboard in the Dark Eldar Wych Cult. Imperial Guard can also take horses (or their equivalent is you want to use a different type of mount), and I expect them to be much use useful here than they tended to be on the 2nd Edition battlefields. Of course, they can't climb ladders, so they still have some drawbacks.

I'm in the process of adding Kroot and Vespid to the Tau list (you convinced me, Venator!). I think I'll limit you to 5 kroot and 3 Vespid in a warband (max size for Tau: 20 models). A fully equipped Vespid will cost approximately 1.5 to 2 times as much as a fully equipped Fire Warrior (By "fully equipped" I mean equipped with all the equipment they typically have in regular 40k, including basic weapons and armor, but no extras)

I know in Necromunda you typically start with a gang size of 8-12 warriors, but the starting warbands I've put together so far tend to top out at about 5-6 members. So you have a lot of room to grow. (I haven't done this for all the races yet. And you will have some flexibility as far as how well you equip them)

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 11:32 am 
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Time for another update. I've added Vespid and Kroot to the Tau list. I need to look into the pitslave rules before adding Servitors, I think. 2nd Edition didn’t have many options for them. Other than that, I think the core rules are pretty much done. I’ve tightened up the rules (though if you find any that are unclear or provide loopholes, let me know). The warbands still need balancing, though I think I have just about all the units included that I want to. Anyone have a copy of the Pit Slaves rules? Were they GW Proprietary or Fan Created? (ie can you send me a copy, or do I need to wait for GW to decide what to do with the non-posted stuff they own)
Here's the link: http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/40k2nd/files/Mord-40k-heim/
Adoni-Zedek wrote:
While my income model is based on Mordheim's, most of the core rules are from Necromunda and 2nd Edition 40k (which is intended for much smaller battles than the later incarnations.)
What I meant by this is the fact that 1500 points of 2nd Edition marines is a much smaller force than 1500 points of 5th Edition marines. 2nd Edition focused more on individuals, rather than squads. Yes, you had squads, but each member of the squad mattered, and their position relative to the enemy and nearby terrain mattered. In later editions the emphasis is on the squad as a whole, not on the individual members of that squad.
Mordheimer wrote:
As Mord-40k-heim stands, there is no chance anyone can fairly stand an experienced, well equipped IG Leader versus a Rookie naked Space Marine Leader and win. This is a big no-no in design... a VERY hard one to overcome. Anyone can give me any reasoning why the Space Marine Leader must have WS 5, BS 5, S 4 and T4 (that cost only 90 credits!)
You will note that the maximum profile for the imperial guard is M4 WS6 BS6 S4 T4 W3 I6 A3 Ld9. So an experienced IG Lt will likely be WS5 or 6 with a powersword, Carapace Armor, and a bolt or plamsa pistol, and possibly even a personal field. A Naked Marine Sgt currently costs 90 points and comes with a combat knife and WS5. If he wants power armor he’s got to pay another 80 rp for it. I see the experienced IG Lieutenant having very little trouble with a naked “rookie” marine Sgt.
Mordheimer wrote:
Take any basic Space Marine vs the point equivalent in Gaunts (I believe it would be 2... maybe 3). Who would you bet on victory? They have the same point cost, yet the SM has the advantage? The point cost is supposed to be 'the great equalizer'! Yet, the lonely SM will most definitely win... that 3+ Save is a biatch
Keep in mind this is Necromunda Close Combat, not Mordheim (5th Edition 40k). They work quite differently. WS is much more important in Necro than it is in 5th Edition (where even a lowly gretchin can hit a Bloodthirster on a 5+), and Initiative plays a much smaller roll in close combat. Three hormagaunts actually have a better-than even chance of killing a lone (base statline) space marine.
Mordheimer wrote:
Take ANYTHING in Mordheim, give it S8 and you take the game so off-balance it is no longer fun.
Again, this is much closer to Necromunda than it is to Mordheim. Just because it doesn’t work in Mordheim doesn’t mean it won’t work in Necro. Necromunda has heavy weapons that go up to strength 10 (Hvy Plasma on High Power) and has powerfists available to certain models. And Necromunda doesn’t have power armor (unless you play spryrers)
Mordheimer wrote:
Death Squads can be set in any situation, and its nature allows for any setting Campaign. You are not limited to pick up Wyrdstone
What kind of income system do you use? I’d be very interested in seeing how it works.
Mordheimer wrote:
There are things a little obscure. Maybe it was my fast reading.
You’re a little obscure about where I’m obscure. :) Please clarify. Be specific. I can’t fix it if I don’t know where I’m obscure.

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Last edited by Adoni-Zedek on Fri Feb 27, 2009 4:48 am, edited 1 time in total.

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:-o


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hi i'am have troubling hold of the new rules could you post them on another site


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2009 6:33 am 
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McCragge was going to post them here, but he's never quite gotten around to it. If you pm me with your email address, I can send you a copy that way. Otherwise you need some kind of Yahoo/Flickr! account to log in and get the files. It's a free account, so you can set it up and ignore it if you want to. (Or PM McCragge, and bug him about posting my rules here. Maybe if enough of you do it, he'll finally get them posted)

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