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Fewest possible # of models

 Post subject: Fewest possible # of models
PostPosted: Mon Oct 19, 2009 9:28 am 
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I've been playing WHFB and Necromunda for years, and I'm finally caving and getting a 40K army.

I have also decided that I want the world's smallest possible force (in terms of number of models) so they'll fit neatly in my new case.

Here is my challenge to you all: What is the least number of models you can configure into a 2000 point army?

Some of my friends are suggesting the Dark Angels Deathwing Company, and al all Terminator force would be especially small, but what are some other ideas?

Also, is playing with Deathwing any fun?

Hope to hear from lots of you.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 19, 2009 4:01 pm 
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I'm not sure about the new rules (gave up on 40K when lost and the damned got junked), but have a look at Chaos.

In the Chaos book most recently out of date, you could field Tzeentch terminators that came in at around 80pts each. Add in a ridiculously expensive Lord, a couple of squads of expensively upgraded marines, and you're looking at a very small army indeed. The Tzeentch termies were pretty tough too, in theory at least.

If you're playing Armageddon, force organisation charts apparently don't apply. So just play IG or whoever gets barrages from space, and spend all your points on first-turn offworld barrages. That gets you:
2000 pts
No models at all.

There was a thread about it a couple of years ago on here.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 19, 2009 6:48 pm 
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In fact, given the slightly higher prices per model in the latest Space Wolves Codex, I think a pure termi force (i.e. with Logan Grinmar at their head) would have even fewer models than a Deathwing army... It would have a few more special rules too which would make it a tad more versatile...

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 19, 2009 10:14 pm 
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An ork nob biker list is pretty good at shoving a lot of points in each model. Any of the all terminator armies are also good at that. Some all vehicle armies are good, but they of course take more room than infantry models, which wouldn't help your limited case space.

That being said, I think this is an approach that will most likely leave you disliking 40k. Low model-count armies are very difficult to play and (in my opinion) usually fairly boring. I would instead ask what armies/gangs you like from WFB and Necromunda. Try to match a style of 40k army that you like in those games, and you're much more likely to have a positive 40k experiance.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 20, 2009 6:40 am 
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Indeed, as AwesomeX says, the low-model-count armies, such as Deathwing, are quite tricky to play well. I used to run tournaments, and I always kept a Deathwing force on hand to use as a "ringer" army if we had an odd number of players. I was never able to win with the army in a tournament setting (not that I tried really hard), but my turns sure went fast, which left me plenty of time to arbitrate rules disputes, etc.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 23, 2009 10:29 am 
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Hi guys,

Thanks for your replies. Since you asked, in WHFB I play High Elves. In Necromunda I play Orlock, Enforcers, and Redemptionists.

The Space Wolves idea is interesting. I'll look into that. If a smaller force is trickier to play, I'd be interested to know why.

As for games going more quickly, I think that's a huge plus. I'm a casual, social gamer. I love the games workshop games, but I do not that usually around the 4 hour mark my opponents tend to get grumpy. If a smaller force makes it quicker, all the better.

Of course, if GW wants to institute the Seventh Inning Stretch and hot dog and beer vendors into the 40K rules, I'd be happy for the game to last as long as a Red Sox game.

Once again, thanks for your replies. I'm definately still chewing on this. If anyone else has more thoughts I'd be happy to hear them too.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 24, 2009 10:41 am 
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A tau 'Suit' army is pretty small in terms of numbers. My 1500 point force is 12 tau (I've used the old metal stealth suits), Rymmer and shadowsun, two lots of 3 regular suits, 3 hazard suits and two hammerheads.

A guard 'tank' army is pretty small in numbers, but mine takes up a double case...2 vet squads plus coy hq, 3 sentinels, 2 hydras, 2 russ, 2 executioner for 1500, though I'm looking at dropping a russ for a vendetta.

A tzeench list is tiny, 1500 points doesn't even take a tray in a case.

I know you are looking at 2000pts, but this is what help I can give as a builder of 1500pt forces.

Good luck!

Edit:
The reason small forces are harder to use is because you have no expendable squads, eg my 1500pt Deathwing is 27 figs, and you only get 3 5xTermy teams on the board in the first turn using the DW attack. This means you can only pick on 3 opposing units etc.

Also with small numbers, if enough brown stuff is thrown at it some will stick. So causing enough dice to be rolled will lead inevitably to casualties, something that small armies cannot deal with. I love small elite forces, as the people I play with will testify, but you need a lot to go your way to get anything more than a hard won draw.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 16, 2010 2:28 am 
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I used to have a Deathwing force (I sold it), and I only lost two games with it out of about ... oooh... 50?

One was against Eldar, in the days where every other weapon was AP2, and the other was against Necrons - my fault, though, I'd won, but then I decided to charge some Wraiths, rolled nothing but snake eyes and ended up losing. D'oh!

Deathwing are both small in numbers, very tough, and very easy to win with so long as you remember the Deathwing Mantra:

Stay OUT of combat!
CONCENTRATE your fire!
TRUST in the Emperor!

Shooty lists do MUCH better than stabby lists unless you're running a Land Raider mech list.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 16, 2010 10:20 am 
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tyranids! the fewest number of models in an army... or guard... they have only a few models too... hahahahaha sorry...

but grey knights would be a way to go too... seems all the super powerful models seems to be space marines... though does that surprise anyone?


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2010 6:31 am 
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In the newest edition of 40K, the main way to win missions (2/3 of them anyhow) is by claiming objectives, and only troop choices can claim them, although any unit can contest them. Using a small force makes it much more difficult to claim objectives, especially in the missions with three or more objectives. The third mission is kill points, in which case you'd have fewer points to give up so that could play to your advantage.

Ruleswise, 40K plays much differently than Fantasy and Necromunda (which is based on 2nd edition 40K and the modern edition is 5th!) so starting up and using a small, elite army will most likely result in losses for you which may dissuade you from playing.

That all being said, I have no clues about how good a leader you are, so starting off with an elite force may fit your play style and work well for you. Terminators are super tough in 5th edition as they have great armor saves, invulnerable saves and most likely a cover save. Most people run a squad in a landraider and deep strike/teleport some in as well so that they arrive later in the game, giving you a late game hammer to bring down where you see fit.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 18, 2010 1:57 am 
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Late game teleport/DSing is VERY risky. The majority of successful DWing armies start on the board, and usually outside their Land Raiders (if they have any) to ensure they get maximum use from their firepower.

The key to winning with Deathwing is to concentrate your fire - pick a target and destroy it utterly - and stay out of Assault unless you're better placed in it. Faith in the Emperor of Humanity will see you passing those 5+ invulnerables more often than not... ;)

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 01, 2010 2:16 am 
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Since this thread has been resurrected, I'm curious to know if the OP had selected an army to play yet. If not, my personal favorite army is soon going to getting a new codex. Blood Angels assault oriented, but retain some shooty aspects. They also use a lot of mobile elements, more-so than most Space Marine armies, and so usually have a lower model count. If rumors are correct, you could easily make a pretty small, elite army with them by taking a lot of jump pack troops and a lot of expensive elites such as Death Company and Exalted.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 29, 2010 2:52 pm 
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AwesomeX wrote:
Since this thread has been resurrected, I'm curious to know if the OP had selected an army to play yet. If not, my personal favorite army is soon going to getting a new codex. Blood Angels assault oriented, but retain some shooty aspects. They also use a lot of mobile elements, more-so than most Space Marine armies, and so usually have a lower model count. If rumors are correct, you could easily make a pretty small, elite army with them by taking a lot of jump pack troops and a lot of expensive elites such as Death Company and Exalted.


Yes, I have chosen my army and played a very few battles with it. The consensus seemed to be that Terminators are the best choice for my goals. I bought several boxes of them, a Captain, and I was given a Librarian and a couple Land Raiders.

All of the advice I received on this thread was quite accurate, so thanks very much everyone for your time and experience. I tried the DS, late game DS, and it was as catastrophic as everyone predicted. The Deathwing really does best with a full game of concentrated fire from its whole army.

I am not in love with my army. I wanted a small list because I have a hard time making 40k a priority in my life. Consequently, I have a list that does best standing still, shooting all game, and really isn't very exciting. My Captain is a demon in combat, but that's about the only cool part.

Your points about holding objetives were also true. Not having many squads is definately a handicap. It also drastically restricts tactical choices, and if I were going to seriously pursue 40K, I can't I I would justify more than a single terminator squad. All the other cool stuff, speeders, bikes, big marine squads, that's where I suspect the fun is.

Having tried the game out, I have regrettably not gamed in a long time. I have been away from home without my models, buried in school and other things. I'm planning to get together with old friends and play next week, but I suspect we'll turn to our old favourite, Necromunda.

Anyhow, this thread pointed me in exactly the right direction with my army and answered my questions completely. This is a great example of how crowdsourcing can work, and I hope everyone enjoyed thinking this through as much as I did. I had a look at a few other lists, but ultimately settled on Deathwing, just as you said I would.

I did get massacred in one battle against Necron. The sheer numbers and resurrection just meant I couldn't kill fast enough. With my small elite force, I just didn't have enough dice to cause the number of wounds I needed to stop the hoard, and they kept getting back up...

Cool models though. Terminators are definately a pleasure to assemble and paint. Some day when I find myself unemployed and single I'd like to model some feather wings from WHFB models on the backs of my termies. I have seen that done with great effect.


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